Terminology unification
Thaumaturgy/Magecraft
I think it's time we replaced any instances of "thaumaturgy" with "magecraft" because I don't know that any localisations have actually used it, or at the very least, I haven't seen it in FGO. -- Banksia (talk) 03:15, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, is kind of a weird hodgepodge currently. High thaumaturgy 大魔術 is probably the most common usage of it. Greater magecraft? Probably the best sounding. EGGS (talk) 03:38, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
- I'm checking some of the FGO scripts and it looks like the localisation for 大魔術 depends on the context, like in one instance, it's "powerful magecraft" and in another, it's just "spell". Edit: Found a list of fan translations for reference. -- Banksia (talk) 00:44, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Human history
汎人類史
- Fan translations
- Greater History of Man
- Pan-Human History
- Localization
- Proper Human History
I think all three are currently utilized. Probably best to pick one and unify it. EGGS (talk) 23:00, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, 汎 is basically "pan-". Not sure how people landed on "Greater", but that and "Proper" are certainly clearer at conveying what it means to be "acceptable" history. So, it's not 100% accurate to 汎人類史 perhaps, but I'd say "Proper Human History" is decent enough. -- Banksia (talk) 12:22, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
Articles
Alternate versions
I think you should split TV's article. At least between the assassin version that gets summoned by chaldea and her Beast counterpart.GuessWhoYoutube (talk) 09:57, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, that's the plan. Really just waiting for the event to be over so we know what she is and have a Beast profile to use. EGGS (talk) 13:52, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
Class Names
I think the way Class Names are used should be changed. It worked when there were a handful of Fate entries, but has become a bit unwieldy in recent times. Some Servants, escpescially those who are unique to FGO, are never called by their class name and it can be argued that they don't have a class name to begin with, so they don't need to be listed in the Servant's introduction.
Calling Servants by their class name in their gallery is likewise odd, especially when they're called by their true name elsewhere. This can be especially akward when the Servant has had manifestations where they're in a different class, resulting them being called one name in the description of one image and then a completely different name in the next, which is simply inconsistent and can breed confusion to those who are new to the franchise and happen to visit the wiki.
My suggestion is that Servants who are never called by a Class Name don't have one listed in their introduction and that Servants get called by their True Name (should it be known) in their galleries, though the latter point is a bit more important to me than the former.--Appelmonkey (talk) 18:55, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Wow, Appelmonkey is back with another shitty and bad idea. We already been through this, so let me tell you how idiotic this proposed change it is. Five random servants from my bond farm list on FGO:
Okuni: I, Caster Izumo-no-Okuni, have arrived. I hope you enjoy the famed Okuni Kabuki. Anyway, I look forward to your continued support and encouragement for many years to come! Oh right, I forgot. This guy behind me is called Zanzaburo, so please get along with him too. Zan: Zan!
Lancer, Altria. I have been summoned upon your request. Just as my beloved horse can swallow the thunder clouds, my spear will break through every rampart. I will crush everything that stands in your way.
Saber-class Servant! Frankenstein's Monster. It's summer, and now I'm not so harsh! Let's get along, 'kay?
Wow, I've finally been called! Thank you, friends of Chaldea! Being left out is painful~! With this I'll fight to the end too! Hm? Huh, it's no good if I don't introduce myself? What a pain… Servant, Foreigner. The Sun of the golden sea of trees, ORT Kukulkan. It might be a blink compared to the life of a star, but I'll go anywhere together with you.
I am Cú Chulainn from Ulster, a Lancer-class Servant. Nice to meet you!
"class name in their gallery is likewise odd, especially when they're called by their true name elsewhere."
Gee, I wonder why would we specify the origin of this image, why would anyone in a page of Suzuka Gozen put Suzuka Gozen in the gallery instead of her three possible saint graphs (saber, Lancer or rider). Why would you put less information and making it worse? Only a genius like Appelmonkey could bring in such proposal where we work to make the site worse for the user and the people who edit here.
"My suggestion is that Servants who are never called by a Class Name don't have one listed in their introduction and that Servants get called by their True Name (should it be known) in their galleries"
You have 400 playable servants in FGO alone, then you are going to make a list of all of them, see their dialogue and divide into two list: those who references their class and those who dont. Then you get examples like a servant who in one saint graph tells his class and not in another, then you have examples where they reference another class like Raikou and not one or another in her summer saint graph. For what reason? What is the point? We already got a nice example of how it is:
Class (their saint graph the origin comes from) /name of the costume in case of costumes + Stage (their level of ascension) + place of origin of the image + who illustrated
And all of this as they keep releasing new alternative saint graphs and new servants. And for what? What it helps not only the user but the people working on it? More inconsistency on the pages? What is the grand plan?
It is a retarded proposition, one that would set us back a whole lot since it is not only moronic in its use but bring in less or already clear information (see any Nero or Artoria gallery, to see how one of her costumes would mean nothing if it was just written Nero on it).
please just for one second think before trying to make something worse, in all my years here you are definitely the worse user I've ever saw, not even straight up vandals are so bad at it, every time you try something you just make it worse, without respecting the work or others and making it worse, I personally believe each servant saint graph should gets its own page instead of putting it all once, but it was decided to not make it like that, I didnt try to change something that was already chosen for no reason at all. It is a community effort, there are lots of articles needing work like music, Soundtrack, composers, instead of fucking up what is already alright, work on those, jesus christ.
Lemostr00 (talk) 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Bumping this so that hopefully, a staff member can see it in the hopes they will give their response. In the meantime, let’s unpack this.
First off, those intros you listed. Servants introducing themselves with their class once does not warrant their class names to be given this amount of prominence. Because that is what they are doing, naming their class and not their class names. A small difference otherwise, but in this topic, it warrants distinction. This is especially obvious with Fran and Cu, who introduce themselves by their class and not class names.
“It takes away information.” If there is anywhere to list a Servant’s Class Name, it is in the introductory paragraph and not their gallery. Galleries are there to list images the characters are in, not to list their various aliases. As I said, it breeds confusion and inconsistency when a Servant is called by one name under one picture, and then a different under the next.
“It would take too long to implement.” This is only an issue if there is a time limit, but since this is a wiki, we are not constricted by this. Recently the chant format for NP quotes was introduced, wasn’t it? How long did that take/is it taking? Presumably longer than it would to change the names in galleries considering there are 100 more NP pages than there are Servant pages. A lot of FGO Servants, which, as you said, keep increasing, don’t have anything in their role content. Should we forgo filling those out just because it would take a lot of time and new content keeps being released for them?
Lastly, I find you rather hypocritical. You keep preaching on about community and how I am defiling the sanctity of it, right after calling me ablisitic slurs and belittling me for making a proposal. There are numerous ways you could have responded, even if you do think what I am suggesting is stupid, yet you chose the most toxic way of doing it. What kind of atmosphere does that create, do you think? Certainly not one of cooperation and community togetherness.
I am open for further discussion regarding the use of class names, but don’t bother replying if you are gonna include more insults. I will not dignify it with a reply nor will I bother to continue reading it if you do.--Appelmonkey (talk) 16:37, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
"it warrants distinction. This is especially obvious with Fran and Cu, who introduce themselves by their class and not class names."
Why can't you understand that the decisions made in the past is to avoid confusion and trouble in the future? Do you have a significant problem to understand that a single character have multiple saint graphs and can change their class? That the decision we took in the past avoids this confusion by referring to their classes? If we are in the Okita Souji page, putting their names in the gallery or the text is redundant. Your argumentation of being old or new is poor when we have a recent example like Yamato Takeru in samurai remnant, where he is refered as Saber all time time, even old characters like Gilgamesh were refered by Ruler in the game. So are you going to filter every single case (past, present and future) to see what each character does? Can you UNDERSTAND how RETARDED this is? How it doesnt add anything new? You are changing for something with less information, making it worse.
The way it is done today allows it for be really consistent (with some execptions) bot only in the past and present but also the future. (If there is enough differentiation, we even make new pages (see Nagao Kagetora and Uesugi Kenshin (Ruler), Gilgamesh and Gilgamesh (Ruler), Melusine and Melusine (Lostbelt))
And today we got another example of why refering to the name instead of class
The NP pages are something different: it will take much longer and I have no problem with, I will not help on it. Why? Because I have no interest on it. So how can I be positive on this change and not your? Because this change adds something, it doesnt change for a worse version to what it was. A personal example of mine: all manga and books infobox were previously the same media ones, I created a new one with more information for the series. It is all about positive change for the better, not the worse like your ideas. Even when it was already decided to do this way previously in the case of names/classes. Change is something that is good if positive, which is not this proposal case.
"You keep preaching on about community and how I am defiling the sanctity of it"
You are the only user here who makes things worse for others. I have been here for years and never had problems with any user, even when we never spoke, their additions to the wikia and mine dont clash because there is an unity in objective: to make the pages and information better. Do you think I choose to attack you because I am the big bad man or do you think it is a reaction to your idiotic changes? It is quite obvious that is the later. I do not care about you, I care about the straight up vandalism that you did before consulting others, and even when you do, you do it without thinking a second about it, how it makes it worse.
Why in a page named Okita Souji Alter would you change all gallery image names to Okita Souji Alter? It is fucking obvious that it is a galleriy of that character. Dont you understand how stupid it is? Or how we made this way to avoid future trouble (that will happen anyway for example Nemo, where we have 3 different versions with the same class, but it would still be better than use Nemo, Nemo and Nemo.
Let me give you a tip: click on your name and copy all the content from whatever page you want and make all the changes and compare the normal version and your edited one. Just do it and see how idiotic it would be, even more when the same character interacts with itself and you have no way to differentiate. Let me give you one example:
"Mordred told Nemo that Abigail Williams wanted a Swimsuit Saint graph, but since Nemo was in winter clothes, he presented Abigail Williams with a swimsuit. Abigail Williams then asked Nemo to use their ship to make waves for her to surf with Mordred."
Now identify it without using their class.
I used 3 characters and 7 different saint graphs in this.
Now another example: Medusa.
"Medusa told Medusa that her sisters were brushing Medusa's hair, being jealous of Medusa, the angry Medusa used her harpe to cut Medusa's hair, but was defended by Medusa's Shield.
All the same name and I used 5 different saint graphs of the same character, can you identify which one did what?
If you dont get it with this, then its is over I gave up
Lemostr00 (talk) 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Stopped reading when I read retarded again and skipped to the end. "If you dont get it with this, then its is over I gave up." Please do. If you can't grasp that sometimes people can disagree with decisions and reasons for said decisions and are unable to engage in civil discourse then that's on you. Not like this is the proper channel to suggest and discuss changes. Will be waiting for someone who can actually communicate.--Appelmonkey (talk) 21:49, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- First thing, please chill out on the insults, Lemostr00. There is zero reason to be so vitriolic towards anyone here. Please do not repeat that in the future.
- For the Class Names, article formatting should be consistent across the board. Even if it doesn't come up often in FGO, it's still an intrinsic part of the Servant experience. They still have their Class Names, even if they aren't used, and that introduces the concept to the reader.
- For the article image sections, [Class] [Servant], like "Saber Artoria" and "Archer Artoria", would be the best middle ground for multi-Saint Graph Servants. Just the Class is kind of weird, and just the name wouldn't work in some cases. If the Servant only has one Saint Graph, just their name is fine. EGGS (talk) 15:04, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
That would be terrible because there is a complete lack of consistency in the names used by each ascension, gameplay, and the wikia itself.
Examples: You have Mash, and her name depending of the ascension is only Mash, not Mash Kyrielite. William Shakespeare for example it is only named Shakespeare, but someone with a longer name like Florence Nightingale (Santa) is full on there, without picking one or another. It is incredibly inconsistent at how they name each ascension with their names, even more when we add pretenders, pseudo servants and so on.
And then we have even more inconsistency at localization terms: would you pick Tam Lim Gawain or Fairy Knight Gawain? Atalanta or Atalante? Artoria or Altria? Ptolemy or Ptolemaios? Parvati or Pārvatī? Takeda Harunobu or Takeda Shingen? And there is the gigantic problem of japanese names used over foreign servants names like Ko Enshaku, Shokatsu Kōmei, Yu mei ren Trưng sisters, and the list goes on.
If we go this route, you will be obligated to pick one, another example is how things got even more complicated is how some pseudo servants are not some god taking over the host body, but sharing it like Bazett being in control in ascension 1 and 2 and manannan in the third.
Someone will have to make this choice and there are so fucking many to decide which one to pick, into something that I clearly don't see the good that it will add to it.
Currently in the actual scenario, our problem are only the ones where a same servant have the same class (but it can usually be diferentiated by the type of variation) examples: in the abigail page: Foreigner (Swimsuit) Stage 1, in artoria pendragon Alter: Rider (Swimsuit) Stage 2 and the recent Rider (Santa) Stage 1-3 in case of Nemo
And the wikia is inconsistent as well in the names used as well in various levels, for Shirō we use Shirou, in Tōsaka we use Tohsaka, in Matō, we use Matou, if we go this way, we are bringing in one more gigantic problem to use. I will always prefer to use the name in the original text, but even then there will be inconsistencies like アルトリア. Do we pick Arutoria, Altria, Artoria, Arturia, Arthuria?
Lemostr00 (talk) 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- In regards to the image section for Servants with multiple graphs, what if their 'base graph' is just listed as their true name while their 'alternate graphs' have their alteration in parentheses? Nightingale's Berserker form, for example, would be listed as simply "Nightingale" while her santa form is listed as "Nightingale (Santa)", or Artoria Pendragon would have something like "Artoria" for her Saber incarnation and "Artoria (Swimsuit)" for her Summer/Swimsuit incarnation. I think this would work aswell while also remaining consistent with the way we name pages and subheaders for alternate graphs.--Appelmonkey (talk) 18:24, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
User User:Incub7 went and started changing it all the artoria pages to their names without the discussion being complete and just proved my point at how bad it is: first he didnt use the full true name, he picked Artoria. So no consistency in it, even more when we have examples like Artoria Pendragon Lily, where the page name is Artoria Pendragon Lily but her true bane is just Artoria Pendragon with the Lily in parenthesis. Other example is the Alter, where the same repeats again. So if we go by your idea: Artoria Pendragon (Alter) (Swimsuit) Stage 3 in Fate/Grand Order, illustrated by Takashi Takeuchi or Artoria Pendragon (Alter) (Santa) Stage 3 in Fate/Grand Order, illustrated by Takashi Takeuchi.
It looks bad, really bad, even more when the galleriea doesnt only have FGO content where for example we have a character named Zero Saber in a capsule servant image where it is the official name, ou zero lancer in fate/unlimited codes.
And another example showcased by Incub: Artoria Caster. That is her official name, it doesnt make sense, but in this scheme it would be: Artoria Caster (Berserker) or Artoria Caster (Swimsuit), and god forbid TM if they make an alter one because it could be Artoria Caster (Alter).
And a somewhat example is Suzuka Gozen, where her name is Suzuka Gozen (Samebake) short for summer vacation. The official names are going to be ignored then? Who decides what goes? To what advantage? Why put the name that is already in the page? Even more when significant changes are already being split in different pages like Morgan Summer and aesc, Durga and Kali, the Nobu Avenger, etc and so it goes.
There is zero advantage to this, having her name in a gallery that is already about that character is pointless, even more when you have lots of examples that you will have to pick one based on a choice that may be questionable.
Lemostr00 (talk) 19 December 2023 (UTC)
Sorry I got really annoyed by this arguement and made a unilateral decision. I apologize for doing that and will not do so again. But can you and Appelmonkey please reach some sort of middle ground. Incub7 (talk) 00:49, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
Here is my proposal. Full True Names are always used. This sidesteps the debate on whether the first or last name is more appropriate and would prevent people from using the wrong name by mistake. Since Alter, Lily, and Santa are often, if not always, incorporated into the true name, see Jeanne Alter Santa Lily, they don't need to have parentheses. The Swimsuit and Classes that aren’t the Saint Graph's main class remain in parentheses.
With Diarmuid being called Zero Lancer in UC, we can just call him Diarmuid, since it is just Diarmuid and not some alternate version of him. But, you do raise a point with the Capsule Servants since the reader would need to be able to tell at a glance that they are meant to be different characters and not just Artoria/Medusa/Nero wearing a different suit (even if they are just wearing different suits). If we implement this policy we can leave them alone.
Regarding Suzuka Gozen, if her special signifier for her swimsuit form is Samebake, then I don’t see any issue with using that instead of a swimsuit.
Then there is Castoria, and yeah, her name is dumb, but that is on Type-Moon and not on us. Wouldn’t be the first time TM did something stupid that had to go on the wiki for information’s sake.--Appelmonkey (talk) 12:54, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
"Full True Names are always used. This sidesteps the debate on whether the first or last name is more appropriate and would prevent people from using the wrong name by mistake."
No it does not. You have pretenders that have different identities depending of the stage: mostly pretenders like Tenochtitlan, Huitzilopochtli and Tlaloc. You have servants like Amour that have different names too for each stage. And even servants where the wikia itself written wrong. Quetzalcoatl for example is written as a single word but in japanese it is ケツァル・コアトル quetzal coatl, or examples like I said before of foreign nanes being different from the ones in japanese by not even trying to adapt it like the whole Aesc/Tonelico/Toneriko issue.
Your own example just illustrates how inconsistent it is: Jeanne Alter Santa Lily. She is the only Lily where that is her own name, both Artoria and Medea have their (Lily) in parenthesis, even when they came out before Jeanne. The same goes for all the alters in the game (FGO), but in fate/stay night, Saber Alter wasn't called Artoria Pendragon (Alter). She was called Saber Alter bringing in another aspect of the gallery names: you use the names originally used in that work, you dont get to retroactively change Zero Lancer into Diarmuid in FUC, because each picture depicts what it was called originally: one example is how "Armed Gorgon in Back Alley Satsuki - Chapter Heroine Sanctuary" in medusa's gallery. That isn't gorgon, but the name used in the work must be used rather than Armed Medusa. Recently I changed names used in FHA and FSN portraits than just a description of what kind of clothes it was. Why and how it was the change made: first was that the clothes were named in that way in the original japanese filenames and also written as such on the Fate/complete material II, that wasn't arbitrary at all, a change must be based on actual sources, and your proposition will bring out a lot of conflict of sources that I just listed posts ago: japanese names x foreign names, localization versus original material, change in names and so on.
And we got the perfect example of why this change would be vad with nemo (Santa). In the same saint graph, you get at random all the nemo series making voice lines, it is all randomized and not like previous Nemo where he was in control, all their voicelines will have to be set to each Nemo variation, All in the same servant. But how will we alocate each information of it in the wikia? Compartimentalize each action to each Nemo or just write it down in the nemo santa page? Even when we already have separate pages for each of then? This isn't even a case like Rani series from paper moon, it is something new that we will have to work out and our choices from the past were done to avoid problems like this (see Aesc/Toneriko and Morgan (Swimsuit getting into different pages also being the same servant in FGO)
There are lots of inconsistencies and choices to be made, another example of how it is: Iskandar the name is derived from Al Iskandar based on their view from their point in life. But at the same time we use Ptolemy rather than Ptolemaios (used in japanese text) so we have it switched. The same shit happens with Achilles where the japanese use their greek name. Or how sometimes we see people using Hercules rather than Heracles. Or how we use Jason, when the original text is Iason (イアソン). Or even how Christopher Columbus was written in katakana with their english name クリストファー・コロンブス rather then their original name as Cristoforo Colombo クリストーフォロ・コロンボ.
The wikia itself doesn't have consistency, Can I blame some editor for picking a name that he wants without deciding on some common basis? I would love to change Jason page to Iason, since the world J didnt even exist back then, and I would totally be in the right since the japanese supercedes any localization decision. Even in localizations we have shit like Mash always using senpai to refer to the player but changing the -san,-sama, dono without being consistent.
Unless we all pick a common basis to edit, using true names will be a mess of arbitrary choices, some more right than others and it isn't even a case of first name versus last name. It is a matter of making a choice that will alienate users somehow (see altria vs artoria)
And somewhere along the way someone here made the decision, and here we are juggling this and somehow what was decided back then, hides this problem very well by using their class, because if someone makes the choice, problems will occur since someone will claim x or y and you cant even say that he is wrong depending of their choice.
Lemostr00 (talk) 20 December 2023 (UTC)
With Pretenders we can just use the names they go by then. With Amour, she is still called Amour, I know that lore-wise she is called something like Super Caren in the 3rd stage, but this isn’t like with Durga or Castoria where their true name/graph changes (at best it is a nickname Caren gives this stage). And as for how some Servant’s names are translated, that’s a separate matter from this debate. IMO whatever their name is spelled in English should be used since most Servant’s Japanese names are just Japanifications of the names of other languages and this is an English language wikie, but I digress.
Regarding the Lilies, it's true that the Lily signifiers are written in parentheses on their in-game profiles and source books(?), in in-game dialogue and their name box Lily is written down without parentheses, so there is precedence for doing this. Though in most cases Santa is usually placed in front rather than the back of the true name, this can be judged on a case-by-case basis.
And I see the reason for using the names used in the original work. So we could restrict this debate to FGO images.
And sure, exclusively using class names avoids a lot of problems, but brings some of their own. While Diarmuid in Fate/Zero is known as Lancer, but not in FGO and Mash is not even called Shielder. Approach any Fate fan, even an FGO player, and refer to Mash as Shielder and they wouldn’t know who you are talking about, at least not immediately. I'd rather prefer to drop this bit tho, as I am afraid we'd be talking in cricles--Appelmonkey (talk) 21:31, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
Since it doesn't seem like we will be able to reach a comprimise any time soon, I think it would be best if we let EGGS make the final call as to how to proceed.--Appelmonkey (talk) 11:19, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
No. I wrote one thousand reasons to why not do this, you cant give me only one convincing argument to why change it.even your own examples are shit: Altria is the name used in english localization, and it is enforced by type-moon even when localizers wanted to use other, the sane goes with Tam Lin. But we still use in the wikia the name based in the "japanization", arutoria > artoria. I just wrote about Colombus name, it wasn't their original name used like they do with greeks, it was the english named written in katakana, there are so many of these inconsistencies, just another one for you: Constantine XI, in the original japanese, it is used arabic algarisms instead of roman numbers, even when the character is from a greek background, so should we use Constantine the Eleventh then? And here is the thing: I am just using examples from my head, if we go by all the servants, there will be many more.
"Approach any Fate fan, even an FGO player, and refer to Mash as Shielder and they wouldn’t know who you are talking about"
You have brain damage. You use as an example... The literal ONLY shielder we have so far as a playable character in FGO, not even Galahad alter is a shielder and you use this as an example? Seriously whatare you trying to do?
"So we could restrict this debate to FGO images."
let me say you one more time:
CHARACTERS. HAVE. MULTIPLE. SAINT. GRAPHS. IN. DIFFERENT. CLASSES. DO. WE. PREDICT. THE. FUTURE?. NO. SO. WE. LEAVE. IT AS. IT. IS. WHEN. THEY. CAME. WE. JUST. USE. THEIR. CLASS. TO. SHOW. THE. ORIGIN. OF. THE. IMAGE. IF. NOT. WHY. EVEN. WRITE. STAGE 1-4. IF. WE. JUST. USE. THEIR. NAMES. IN. A. PAGE. NAMED. SERVANT X. OBVIOUSLY. ALL. IMAGES. IN. A. GALLERY. ARE. RELATED. TO. SERVANT X. IT. IS. REDUNDANT. TO. HAVE. THEIR. NAMES. THERE.
Lemostr00 (talk) 21 December 2023 (UTC)
We're still on the topic of galleries? I think class + name is the best. Just the classes could be confusing to someone new, while just the name omits the context of the class. "Saber Artoria," "Swimsuit Archer Artoria", "Swimsuit Rider Artoria Alter", etc, generally shortened as much as possible. If last names or extended names are necessary for context, that's fine as well. The point should be to provide information while retaining as much brevity as possible when providing that information. If there's another debate in here that I missed, let me know. EGGS (talk) 16:29, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
If you are asking if you missed a debate after all these comments, then you just didn't read it, just assume it. Just like appelmonkey is ignoring all my arguments to why not change how it is done. This discussion is fucking tiresome, do you want complete information or brevity? If it is brevity so we should just remove names and class, because it is redundant in the page anyway, both of them, the infornation is already on the pages anyway.
If you want this: "The point should be to provide information while retaining as much brevity as possible when providing that information."
You leave as it is. The name of the character is already in the fucking page, the gallery refers to that one. It isn't a case where the images are on List of minor characters page. The name is there (even when incomplete)
I keep explaining this, but you guys are ignoring this shit, if it is brevity, fuck it, lets stop using Taigong Wang, just use Taikōbō, lets even stop using artoria, lets just use Altria, lets also stop using shirou and use Shirō. Lets go full retard then, since it is shorter, retains the same information. Do you want something good or you want brevity? Decide it already.
I dont give a fuck anymore, just shit it up already, if not logic and good common sense can't decide it and "Just the classes could be confusing to someone new" when someone new would read the fucking first paragraph of the page or even the fucking title of the page would get it. The only place where it would be confusing is the double class like abby, nemo, artoria pendragon alter. But I guess you believe that our readers cant read the name of the page or even the AKA= section of the profile.
Do whatever the fuck you guys want, I give up. Also a good idea would be to name every single servant in each craft essence image, since our new readers might be confused about who are in the pictures too. Do the same with every picture with more than one character too, after all we dont want the new readers to be confused about identities of a franchise with more than 1000 characters.
Edit: almost forgot, when you get to Miyamoto Musashi (Lostbelt), use Shinmen Musashi no Kami Fujiwara no Harunobu, since that is her TRUE NAME, used in the game multiple times, since all this discussion was about using their TRUE NAMES. Lets not forget to use Nameless on Sasaki Kojirou, since he states multiple times that he doesn't have a name and is only borrowing some famous name. The same goes for our fellow Angra Mainyu (Avenger), since he is clearly just some random boy and not the true angra mainyu. Lets not forget when we get to Miyu Edelfelt, use Miyu Emiya or Miyu Sakatsuki, or Hanam when comes to Hassan of the Cursed Arm. And remember: you choose this, every name that anyone picks to use on the gallery, you cant tell them they are wrong, be it Altria, artoria, elizabeth or Elisabeth, atalanta or atalante, iason or jason, shokatsu komei or zhuge Liang, they are all correct and give you the full context™ and brevity™, good luck.
Lemostr00 (talk) 24 December 2023 (UTC)
I adressed you arguments dude and I tried meeting you half way, you just kept moving the goal post. I tried to be civil when Eggs told you to calm down and you went right back acting like a todler when tempers flared. Not like you were arguing in good faith in the first place considering you pretty much appointed yourself content moderator. So much for respecting community ones. Like fuck dude, first post I make and you started forthing at the mouth and the mere idea I suggested something. Not implimented something without asking this time, suggested. Honestly, did you think I would see 'reason' after you call me an idiot enough times or was your aim to bully me off the wiki cause the staff won't ban me? And this whole idea that people will use a name other than the page name is such a reach that its laughable. It would like me saying that people might up using Seiba, Shiruda, Ransa, cause those are the class names too and confused people might easily impliment those by accident instead. And god forbid we got 3 Servants of the same class in a picture and we gotta introduce Lancer, Lancer, and Lancer or have two different Saint Graph changes that change the Servant to the same class. But hey, at least you gracefully accepted a decision once it was made, like you told me I had to.--Appelmonkey (talk) 09:56, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
First of all, just fuck you.
Then at least include the fucking class like EGGS said, the New Reader™ cant read minds to know which class that images originates from, you are literally taking information off the gallery you imbecile. The next you will come with the idea since it is a fate/grand order servant, the In FGO part of the gallery should be removed too.
But since no words can enter you defectual brain, maybe a image can:
And pay attentiion to which name is bigger in the image, but since you are dumb as fuck, I will tell you (even when words doesnt enter the sea void that exists inside your skull). It is the Class.
This is a fate/grand order servant card, the ones used in the galleries. But as you can see in the galleries, the ones used in there are just the full illustrations, without the borders, class names, stars names, rarity, anything else. And since the community decided that we should merge all variants into a single page and not like Suzuka Gozen (Lancer) and Suzuka Gozen (Rider), all their gallery images are still on the same gallery in each page.
Everything else is in that, every single variation that is described in the alternative form section (if existent). But when you click in the page the appearance section comes first, way earlier then the Forms and Alternate Versions sections.
any New Reader that doesn't know that servants can come on multiple saint graphs can change their class, so the new reader would be right on assume that the Brynhildr Swimsuit as you wrote in her page would be a Lancer class, since that is the first paragraph of the page.
]
But oh no! She is a berserker class, not a Lancer class, so our New Reader would assume wrong, since he read before in page that Brynhildr was a Lancer class servant and was only used a Swimsuit, what a mistake he commited by not reading the Alternative forms earlier, since it is on the bottom of the page. Yeah, you are fucking dumb if you think this is acceptable (just like you edited it, so no suppositions on my part at reading how a complete imbecile mind works).
And that isnt even the worse, since we know you are a complete idiot, let me show you one of you retarded examples:
You in your edit put Swimsuit Anastasia as the text, but even wheb we discussed this for days about why it would be a bad idea and lots of exceptions would be, her name on the game isnt Anastasia. it is Anastasia and Viy.
Everything that I said for days, and still fucks it up.
But I also said something about true names changing depending of the saint graph, even if you dont know japanese, you can clearly see that the symbols are different
But you ignored everything that I warned since you are a mongoloid imbred fuck, when I told the moderation to ban you months ago, I knew that shit like this would continue to happen. Since this is a pretty small wikia with even less administration. Call it Clairvoyance (Skill) EX+++
But after the picture lesson, (since you dont know how to read), lets change the topic:
Which community came here to discuss? No fucking one. We've been here for days already and just me and you came to discuss, and a moderator who didnt even read the arguments of both sides, and you went and start changing anyway (and still fucking wrong). There wasn't discussion between the community at all, just one person who's been here trying to make the wikia better and a complete imbred retarded fuck (YOU), which every attempt of editing ignored what was stablished before.
You wanna know why I gave up on this? When the moderation itself doesnt give a fuck, why should I? What can a normal user do? They dont care about it, just one admin came here and didnt help it at all, to not even read the discussion that occured by almost a week.
No decision was made here you retarded fuck, there was no consensus at all, I just gave up, there was no community here, no one besides me came to discuss. If no one was here, you would change it anyways like you always did, the only difference is that I will not waste my fucking time arguing with a complete retarded cunt who cant assimilate one billion explanations to why something is a bad idea. I will just not waste my fucking time, and if the administration bans me, thank s to you and bless them for making me not interact with you a second longer, because you single handled killed my interest of working on this wikia, something that I've been doing for years since the administration is just inexistent and the community is silent. Banning me would just make any desires to fix something here disappear, just a stone that I would be gladly to stop instead of climbing it over.
You didnt win by arguments, you won because just the idea of clicking Undo on 400 pages makes me sick, I am not a janitor that cleans shitty editing, and no one in literal years, except you were apt to be this complete retarded in edits. I am just a normal user who wanted the wikia to be better, I for sure will not waste my time anymore when the people who should do their duty, aren't doing their share of work.
Now let the others suffer from having to share the same space as you, because I am done.
Lemostr00 (talk) 23 December 2023 (UTC)
This really voluminous amounts of edits is indeed worrying. It's the holidays so I can't give as much time, but I will look into it. For now, I'm rolling back all of this, as much as I am able. The Lord Reader (talk) 07:40, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Are there no mods on this wiki? On Wikipedia, a single paragraph this dense with insults and personal attacks (not to mention the slurs) would be grounds for an instant ban. There's multiple paragraphs of exactly that right above me. Is there anyone I can notify of this who actually cares? FacelessMoon5 (talk) 00:56, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
After reading this entire discussion, as a relative newcomer, I have to agree with EGGS solution. It is the most understandable one and doesn't have to jump through many hoops to justify it's point. This isn't as complicated as it seems. Clarity should be the main focus on a wiki article, with more complex information left to reserved areas. I. e., a gallery doesn't need need to divulge every piece of information, only make it clear what is what, while the main article (especially the alternate forms sections) should specify more about the information.
I also have to agree with FacelessMoon5, the heavy use or curse words and especially slurs are honestly horrifying to see in a discussion about a suggestion. Half o the discussion reads like I'm being bullied at a racist homophobic school rather than an actual argument. (talk) 02:49, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Try discussing with a complete idiot, whom ignores all your argumentation and go and edit teh pages without any discussion beforehand. And in this own proposed changes there is another case where I explained why his retarded changes are completely retarded in the relationship sections. And as you can see, yeah, just like there are few mods, there are few users and it is amazing how I never had any problem with any user since 2019, since most of then aren't vandalizing the pages.
Except our retarded town boy Appelmonkey. I dont know his behaviour in other wikias, but ever since he came here, he fucked up shit after shit, without communicating with any other user, just doing what he wanted without following the guidelines set others And since we are using wikia and we have logs for everything, you can go and check this out. Let me give you example
But it is funny to see User:FacelessMoon5, a user that first activity was on 19 July 2023, the period that Appelmonkey was inactive (between 18 July and 21 July. And what were these activities on? Names. Names related to mostly irish servants and later edits on lostbelt 6 stuff. Very few stuff. Now, we now that our buffon has interest mostly on riyo servants and nowadays names. A shared common interest, and a shared timeline. Do you doubt it?
FacelessMoon5 comes back to the wikia on August 11, same period that appelmonkey was also active. Then months later on december 21, he comes back on a short stunt, which was also coincide with the same period that appelmonkey would come back. How incredible that two users came back around the same time... Coincidence? Appelmonkey activities are like waves, you can see in his logs that he vanishes time from time, is he active on other wikias, is he doing other stuff, I dont care and I dont give a fuck. But it is extremely suspicious. He could partakes in this same behaviour in other wikias but I dont know.
But here is the thing: why would user FacelessMoon5 comes to this very proposed changes topic? Not to comment on the topic but my own behaviour after being punished to interact with the most retarded inbred humanoid with access to the internet? Pattern repetition. Appelmonkey, as you can see, is a RETARDED BEING, he isn't smart. Lets review it:
My last edit here was on 23 December 2023, then I mostly took a time out, he never responded. Then I came back with more edits on December 31. Now lets see how an imbecile like him would act: "he edited again, that means he isn't banned", so he would login in another account, revive this discussion then go back and revert moderator edits that were cleaning up his mess. And crying for the mods, and ignoring all the discussion. Holy shit. Am I accusing him of using sock puppets accounts? Nooooooo, but assume say he was: this is the most retarded way to do it, and of course, it fits the user just like a glove, match made in heaven. A complete mockery of human inteligence when everything we do is on the logs, and that is the thing: this wasnt planned, but how actitivies match so well that damn, what a coincidence.
Yeah, I dont give a shit if I will be banned, so I dont pull my punchs on offending Appelmonkey, I hoped he would just fuck off to his inbred circle and stay there. My objective to make the wikia better will have to be short cut not by my own choice, but that is the nature of wikias, it is a collective effort, even if not by the highest quality... I still had to correct the Fate/Stay Night mentions made years ago. Will be someone else to replace me? I doubt it, but it may happen, who knows?
We have few users and most of my focus was on real world information, something that this wikia should be ashamed of not making information clear and proper. We have thousands of articles on servant skills but very few articles on music artists, Soundtracks, composers for example. Quite a lot of work to do and very few people on it.
But yeah, fuck Appelmonkey and lets hope that more people would come here to do honest and good editing jobs, which I can assure you, in all my years here, most of the people were like this, unlike Appelmonkey the simpletom of Retardia, the bearer of bad decisions and demolition of good pages. Most people wanted it to be good place of information. If my time here is done, then I am content about what I did and sorry for what I did not.
Lemostr00 (talk) 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Maanna
Thoughts on making a Maanna article going over the different versions? I've been leaven a few drafts for Dark Maanna in Ashtart, spaceship Maanna in Space Ishtar, and a mini section going over Bel Maanna in Ashtart Origin. There's also Ishtar's own bow-like thingy vaguely explained in her Abilities section.GuessWhoYoutube (talk) 22:26, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- They're not really connected beyond the influence behind naming them, so I'd make individual articles on a case by case basis. If the context in the character article is kind of overbearing, making an article is sensible. If there's not a ton of info and it takes like three sentences, just best to leave it in the article. Making a disambiguation page would definitely make sense regardless. EGGS (talk) 13:24, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
- In that case I think Ishtar's maanna is the only one that's really lacking info. I'll do just that once I finish with Ashtart Origin.GuessWhoYoutube (talk) 13:45, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
Multi-character Servants
Someone, I think Banksia, gave the idea of splitting out combined Servants somewhere. For Space Ishtar and Oda Nobunaga (Avenger), that might be a good idea. Valkyrie can probably stay together because that's kind of their thing. EGGS (talk) 17:27, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, I thought the exact same thing. The main article could be used as a disambiguation page of sortrs, while keeping a description of why those 3 people are summoned together, and the skills/NPs they all share. I'd also like to mention that there are actually 2 Demon King Nobunaga's (adult version). There's the villain version from gudaguda4, and then the good version that was a fusion of all others. In this case, there should be 2 different articles, 1 for each one.GuessWhoYoutube (talk)
- I think I'm done with the rework on Space Ishtar. All that's left is to fill in with info the different articles but I think it looks good. 1 article for the original goddess/final villain of SWII, 1 per each alter ego, and 1 for their fusion/summonable servant.GuessWhoYoutube (talk) 18:02, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
Article templates
Less "wiki templates" and more "article templates", hence the new section.
Is there anywhere we can stick a blank Servant article template so we don't have to copypaste from an old one and worry about deleting/changing things? (Actually I faintly recall there being one somewhere but I can't remember where exactly.)
(Actual wiki template question: is there any reason why the profiles all use Character2? If it was meant to replace an old one, we should ... replace the old one?) -- Banksia (talk) 12:29, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- I've always used User:EGGS/Servant template as a quick fill-in. I think Character2 is now a redirect, so it's just a matter of going through with AWB. EGGS (talk) 15:21, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
Misc.
Redirects
I noticed there are some old Hepburn romanization redirects, but do we really need those? I don't know that typing them on the fly is particularly easy - I always need to look them up, but that may just be me. -- Banksia (talk) 02:55, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
- Unless there are some left over, I deleted them all when I initially archived this. EGGS (talk) 01:32, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
Administration/Moderation
I think we're way, way overdue for some more admin/moderators, or even a "team" (whatever that may entail, but hopefully means more coordination!), on the wiki. We may not have a LOT of activity, but it's certainly enough. Apparently the community forums need monitoring? Because fights break out??? And, honestly, props to InsaneZero for creating the wiki in the first place, but they are nowhere near active enough to still be an administrator, surely? I've seen people still try to reach out to them when they want issues resolved. I dunno, I've just been itching to get this ball rolling because how does a wiki this big have only one active adminstrator!!! -- Banksia (talk) 07:25, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
- Removing bureaucrat rights involves setting up a community discussion and then contacting Fandom staff. I've never really thought to bother because there was really no need but we can start that process if we want.
- I basically consider the discussion section an unwanted site foisted upon us, so I haven't paid any real attention to it other than looking at the reported tab a few times. If anyone wants to be a thread moderator, let me know. I certainly have no interest in diving into it.
- I think I can just unilaterally make someone an admin if I want, but we can go through a more formal vote if we'd rather do that. EGGS (talk) 12:39, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
Wikipedia links
I know some places differentiate links to Wikipedia by color, formatting, or a little character next to the link. Do you think it would be beneficial to do that here? EGGS (talk) 20:28, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
- Personally I'm used to the redirect links here all being uniform in terms of colour, however that more than likely is just due to status quo/consistency bias. Overall though I'm unopposed to differentiating links to Wikipedia so long as it fits with the page/content format and the end result isn't too aesthetically jarring (taking away from the viewing experience, rather than contributing to it, which was the original intent). ArcaneX (talk) 07:56, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
I like the 2nd option. Gilgamesh is subtle but effective.GuessWhoYoutube talk
- Launched the WP version to test it out. Let me know how it looks. It is cut off in the lead paragraph due to whatever cuts off Ruby text, so I do need to look into that. EGGS (talk) 21:50, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe it would look better if the "WP" was in another color(?) Not sure, just so that it pops out and doesn't get confused with the regular text.GuessWhoYoutube talk
- Tried red out. EGGS (talk) 13:06, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
- Imo it looks better. The difference in color remarks that it's a different type of link. Not sure if I'd go with red though, since it's the same color used for articles that don't exist. Let's see if someone else shares their take.GuessWhoYoutube talk
- Tried red out. EGGS (talk) 13:06, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe it would look better if the "WP" was in another color(?) Not sure, just so that it pops out and doesn't get confused with the regular text.GuessWhoYoutube talk