Merging with Mordred article
I wonder if the Mordred article should be merged. --EGGS
I think so, but we'll wait for more info. --Napul
- I'm all for it, but if you want to see if "servant" Mordred matches up with the preexisting Mordred, that's fine. Her civilian get up does look kinda like Saber (and in turn the preexisting Mordred design) though.--Otherarrow (talk) 17:52, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
- According to someone else, the original character summary only utilized gender neutral pronouns with "son" being the exception, but it also constantly called Saber her "father." I think I'll go ahead and merge it in that case. If the in-story history turns out to be different somehow, I'll just rename it to "original concept" or something like that. The entire article is just a background summary anyway. EGGS (talk) 17:59, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
- Eh, I guess that will be best for now.--Otherarrow (talk) 18:08, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
- According to someone else, the original character summary only utilized gender neutral pronouns with "son" being the exception, but it also constantly called Saber her "father." I think I'll go ahead and merge it in that case. If the in-story history turns out to be different somehow, I'll just rename it to "original concept" or something like that. The entire article is just a background summary anyway. EGGS (talk) 17:59, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
- I'm all for it, but if you want to see if "servant" Mordred matches up with the preexisting Mordred, that's fine. Her civilian get up does look kinda like Saber (and in turn the preexisting Mordred design) though.--Otherarrow (talk) 17:52, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
Clarent
I assume that having posted that, that the Noble Phantasm is confirmed as being in the Magazine as well. Did it give any hint to it's effects, or is that still being translated? Zahadrin (talk) 05:07, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
Mordred Gender: Fate Stay Night
I do not think you can confirm Mordred as a female in the original Fate Stay Night, Nasu was asked about the gender during Fate Apocryphra and answered based on that premise. Takeuchi even admitted to changing the gender; further the design from Stay Night for Mordred's Armor, Sword and look are completely different.
It's an alternative universe. It should be mentioned that Stay Night version is male while Apocryphra is female.
~~BoyKagome~~
- It's not an alternate universe so much as a retcon. Besides, the "splitting point" for the FSN and the F/A universes is long after King Arthur's time. What we know about F/A's setting is that until the Third War, it was pretty much the same as in canon. So trying to argue that Mordred is arbitrarily different is kinda pointless and impossible to prove. Also, completely different? No. It's more detailed, sure, but it's clearly still based on the older design. Also, as stated above, Mordred in FSN was referred to with gender neutral pronouns and terms except for "son", but even in FA, she refers to herself as "Arthur's son" and Saber as her "father".--Otherarrow (talk) 19:14, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
- I dunno. What we're discussing here is an issue of canonicality. Given that other things are in fact different, on what basis are we supposing with confidence that the circumstances of Mordred's background in Apocrypha are in fact totally applicable to the mainline Fate? I mean, we now have at least two different versions of Vlad III (Extra and Apocrypha; not including the identity of Wallachia's assumed appearance) and maybe two different versions of Jack the Ripper (Strange Fake and Apocrypha); two different versions of King Arthur (Prototype and FSN) and of EMIYA (Extra and FSN). In Extraverse, Arc somehow exists without Crimson Moon being around. I would suggest that despite the 'simpler is more likely to be true' of Occam's Razor, the supposition of sameness to mainline is just as arbitrary and impossible to prove, even given that Gilles de Rais remembers the Jeanne from Apocrypha -- Fallacies (talk) 20:19, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
- Pardon? There is nothing about Crimson Moon not existing in EXTRA. The only thing said is that he is unrelated to the Moon Cell, and in fact, it is explicitly stated that an equivalent to him/Archetype-Earth exists in the setting. The two Vlads are harder to explain, but Strange Fake is irrelevant, as it is noncanon, though I do recall reading somewhere that the Jack there explicitly says he isn't the real Jack the Ripper. (The two EMIYAs are a nonissue, since Shirou Emiya lived and died after the timeline "splits". It'd be a bigger problem if they did have identical backstories.) I do think that, due to F/A at least being derived from the same timeline as FSN, the gender neutrality used for Mordred in FSN, and so on, we should just assume "retconned to be always female, where it was originally ambiguous" until told otherwise by canon, instead of assuming that her gender is arbitrarily different in the two settings because we said so. To sum up, we'd comment that Mordred was originally designed as male/ambigious, but was later decided to be female in a "Development" section. Anything aside from that is speculation.--Otherarrow (talk) 20:37, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
- I dunno. What we're discussing here is an issue of canonicality. Given that other things are in fact different, on what basis are we supposing with confidence that the circumstances of Mordred's background in Apocrypha are in fact totally applicable to the mainline Fate? I mean, we now have at least two different versions of Vlad III (Extra and Apocrypha; not including the identity of Wallachia's assumed appearance) and maybe two different versions of Jack the Ripper (Strange Fake and Apocrypha); two different versions of King Arthur (Prototype and FSN) and of EMIYA (Extra and FSN). In Extraverse, Arc somehow exists without Crimson Moon being around. I would suggest that despite the 'simpler is more likely to be true' of Occam's Razor, the supposition of sameness to mainline is just as arbitrary and impossible to prove, even given that Gilles de Rais remembers the Jeanne from Apocrypha -- Fallacies (talk) 20:19, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
From the original character material, the Mordred presented is vastly different from what’s portrayed in Apocrypha. We also have Takeuchi's confession about changing the gender. About this ambiguous gender pro-noun from the original character material, is there any chance someone could post that ambiguous Japanese word here? Why wouldn't the original character material at least at the very end say clearly the character was female somewhere?
Finally its clearly a different universe all together for Saber Of Red, Shirou exists as Kotomine is proof of that. It cannot be said that the same Mordred that was slain in Fate Stay Knight is in the same time stream as the one that now appears in Apocrypha.
~~BoyKagome~~
With the new info in Apocrypha 2, all the Shirou Kotomine thing is irrelevant. And yes, the Apocrypha universe is an alternate universe, but everything points that it branched off in the Heaven's Feel 3. Yokushi (talk) 02:58, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
- Also "vastly different"? The only change between Mordred in F/A and Mordred in the Character Material is her gender (in that a exact gender is specified.) and the design of her armor (and even then, it's still pretty clear that her F/A armor is at least based on the older armor design). Aside from that, everything said in the Character Material about Mordred matches up pretty well (if not perfectly) with the Mordred we see in F/A. EDIT: Also, you forget that there is this magic thing called a "retcon". Takeuchi admitted that Mordred was designed as a male, but when asked about her gender, Nasu explicitly stated that she was female. The best thing for us to do is to just note that in Development, which we already do. Anything else goes into speculation.--Otherarrow (talk) 04:06, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
Nasu was asked that after Apoc, anyone would have to say that rendition was female. Also i'd still like to have the Japanese word that was used for Mordred's gender so I can cross reference it myself... Alright Arrow, how about a deal. The new Fate Stay Night remake is coming out, correct? If your theory holds true, the Mordred presented in Saber's dream should look like the Apoc version; that would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt the two are the same person. However, if the design remains true to the original character material; its fair to say the character is different and thus the gender remains ambiguous. All I ask is that you let Mordred's gender for Fate Stay Night alone exist as ambiguous until the remake confirms it one way or the other.
~~BoyKagome~~
- What are you talking about? There is no FSN remake. There is a Tsukihime remake, but no FSN one. Also, I admit, it's been a while, but Mordred is never directly shown in the visual novel. There is a flashback, but it is told in words, not visuals. She cameo'd in the anime, but that's about it. Also, Nasu didn't specify F/A. Yes, it was in the context of her being revealed in F/A, but the question was "Is Mordred a girl?" and the answer was "of course she is. Look at her". Being the type for weird details and such, if there was intended to be a difference between verses, Nasu would have probably noted it.--Otherarrow (talk) 14:16, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
- He probably thinks upcoming anime remake by Ufotable.--Napul (talk)
- Ah. Well, we don't know which route they are adapting, so I wouldn't put any bets on Mordred appearing at all.--Otherarrow (talk) 21:28, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
- He probably thinks upcoming anime remake by Ufotable.--Napul (talk)
- I don't remember seeing a reference in Fate/Stay Night in any route but it's been a while since i've played it so i may have forgotten or it may have been in used to replace a H Scene in Realta Nua, as for which route the next anime may use, maybe a tone down Heaven's Feel since we've seen Fate (with a bit of Unlimited Blade Works) and Unlimited Blade Works, though i'm guessing it may tone done alot of the stuff like Sakura's rape (mainly the rape she suffered in the first year which lead to her her apperance changing ie. her haircolour going from brown to purple and her eyes from blue to hollow purple) but i havn't watch Fate/Zero yet so i don't know how much is revealed in that aspect. rather only get told about it in a game cause then i have the power to kill the one responsible (who here didn't feel good about seeing Shinji die and wanting Zouken to have died much much sooner), as for Mordred making an apperance in it, it proably only happen if there is another flashback to Saber's life and her final moment before becoming an unorthodox heroic spirit in which case wont be much different from the anime and that's not canon (i think Bedivere is actully a woman in the anime cause he soulds like a girl and his face does have the same female tone as Saber's and Mordred's)
- Back onto Morderd, Morgan did create Mordred as a homunculus clone of Arturia, i think regardless of universe this is how she was born, being a clone, wouldn't she normally be the same gender as that of the person she was cloned from, also, wouldn't her apperance regardless of gender have been hidden when she became a knight to 1. not arouse suspision by Arturia since they look the same (would have been Morgan idea) and 2. if she was a girl she would have to hide her gender cause at the time it was unthinkable for a woman to be a knight (Arturia even says herself she never though herself as a woman cause a woman couldn't become King), given the original design of her armour shows no sign of her being a woman like Arturia's armour you could say that in terms of Mordred gender outside what has been said about development, Mordred was a girl from the begining but it wasn't until Fate/Apocrypha where Mordred body could be seen without the armour could it been confrimed
- Memor-X (talk) 22:39, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
- I think all the points of Mordred atleast being originally male are covered in that.
- ~~BoyKagome~~
- Yeah, someone else's speculation is just that, speculation, and should not be treated as fact. Stop trying to treat speculation as more canon than actual canon. (also, the bit about Morgon specifically needing a male heir is never brought up in canon and is, again, speculation). You also forget that a.both Arthur and Mordred were believed to be male despite their female appearances, because they masqueraded as such and b.Mordred openly insists on being referred to as male, even in F/A where she is blatantly female (remember, she threatened to kill Kairi when he called her female). Between those two things, Lancelot or even Saber's flashback referring to her as male doesn't mean anything, as she openly refers to herself as male and was male as far as those two knew. (Also, the bit about the armor was really reaching. Saber's armor wasn't "girl's armor". She wore it when masquerading as a man and no one noticed anything. Also, trying to judge "armor curves" based on such a small anime cameo is also silly. Not to mention that the concept art for FSN Mordred also has the "armor curves".) Anyway, yeah, enough of this. This conversation is just going in circles, and I suggest you drop it unless you can provide Nasu outright saying "Mordred is a dude in FSN". Someone else's fanwank doesn't count. I made the FSN section not refer to any specific gender, which fits what information we have.--Otherarrow (talk) 16:29, September 2, 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you, that's all I wanted; sorry for the trouble.
- ~~BoyKagome~~
- Sorry if I got rather annoyed there. Like I said, this conversation seemed like it was going in circles, and you posting what amounted to someone else's nitpicking and rampant speculation did kinda tic me off a bit, I apologize.--Otherarrow (talk) 01:53, September 3, 2013 (UTC)
still awaiting a response on the censorship issue.
I don't even care anymore, I just think you lot are seriously uninformed and have poor manners. Thanks for showing absolutely no evidence through that link, as I have read it three times over and no where does it mention the words Mordred, curse, or Saber is mortally wounded. Sincerely, a censored user.