Talk: Fallacies

Welcome

Hi, welcome to TYPE-MOON Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the Talk:Magic page.

Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- Azaghal (Talk) 05:34, March 15, 2011

Footer

No problem, I'll remove you from the footer. --user452 03:06, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

Administration Nomination

Due to the lack of an active administrator, Arrancar109 has set up Forum:Administration Nomination. EGGS 15:38, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

Western naming order

I'd like to switch the character names over to Western order. See Forum:Western order. EGGS 17:26, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Demon

Since you changed the Demon page to refer exclusively to 悪魔, you're gonna have to find a way to deal with 魔, which is what the page referred to previously. 魔 doesn't just refer to "general supernatural phenomena" as you imply in the Demon page. Bazett says in Fate/Hollow Ataraxia that True Demons are just incarnated demons (魔) who were born as 魔 before being living creatures. Kagetsu Tohya defines 魔 as (paraphrase) something born in the laws of nature that defy it. Whether that means 魔 is a nature spirit or not, I don't know, but 魔 is an actual term.

Example of 魔 as a specific term:

変転の魔：Ｂ 英雄や神が生前に魔として変じたことを示す。 過去に於ける事実を強調することでサーヴァントとしての能力を著しく強化させるスキル。 ゴルゴーンは、人の身では絶対に不可能なランクの筋力と耐久力に到達している。

If you want to designate 魔 as a phantasmal species as you did on the page on the Oni you're gonna have to find a source for that. Zodiac21 (talk) 19:35, February 24, 2017 (UTC)

1) You misread. I said that it refers generally to "supernatural beings." Tsukai-Ma and Mu-Ma were given as examples. Specifically, I said:

There exists some terminological confusion within the English fandom, as in both Tsukihime and conventional Japanese usage, the term "Ma" (魔, ?) -- also rendered as "demon" in some translations -- refers in general to supernatural beings and to assorted supernatural existences and phenomenon.

Note that I'm acknowledging here that Tsukihime does indeed refer to things as "Ma." The definition within Tsukihime canon is as thus:

魔（ま）

自然の法則にありながらその流れを歪めるモノとして必要とされなかった力を行使するモノ達。

発生しているだけで歪みである。故に退魔は即座にこれを禁じる。

Note how utterly general and unspecific it is. Anything that wields "unnecessary" powers in violation of natural law; their existence itself is a distortion.

The Hollow Ataraxia definition that you mention says thus:

聖堂教会でいう『受肉した魔』は生物である以前に『魔』として創造されたため、人間より高度な魔術を使う。人間のような後付の魔術回路はなく、その生体機能のすべてが『魔』を呼び込むための機能である。教会ではそれを『真性悪魔』と呼ぶ。人間の想念を被って『固体名』になる偽物とはちがう、主が遣わした、人が名付ける前からそうであった本当の『悪魔』だと。

Even though it makes use of 受肉した魔 instead of 受肉した悪魔, it's clearly discussing Demons (悪魔) as its primary subject.

2) Your quoted example above demonstrates only that there is something called "Ma." This was already acknowledged in the article:

Further conflation erroneously existed between Enfleshed Demons (受肉した悪魔, juniku-shita akuma?, lit. "Incarnated Demon") and the races of incorporated creatures referred to as "Ma" -- for example, Oni Kind were frequently referred to as True Demons (真性悪魔, Shinsei Akuma?) within the fandom, simply because they possessed flesh.

However, your quote does not define what variety of "ma" Gorgon became. It just says that she indeed became a "ma." What is a "ma," in this context? What are we supposed to take from it beyond that it's something distinct from a Divinity?

In the present article, it is acknowledged that there exists something known as "Ma," and that it refers to supernatural beings. The definition of "Ma" in this context is widely varied and unspecific. Familiars / Tsukaima are, most of the time, living creatures with a magus' Circuits implanted. Demonic Beasts / Majuu are phantasmal creatures that always possessed flesh.

3) These are the definitions I have found for Kishu, from Tsukihime:

鬼種（用語）

人から成った鬼人ではなく、もとから鬼であるもの。遠野の血族はこれとの混血。

文明の発展に伴って衰退し、いまや絶滅種となった。

Not humans that became Kijin, but Oni to begin with.

鬼種（きしゅ）

生粋の魔。

実は月姫世界においては系統樹からして人間とは違っている最初から鬼であるモノと、土蜘蛛等と呼ばれ迫害されて隠れ住むようになり、生物的に少々変異してしまった力ある元・人間の2種類居て、遠野家の祖先は前者であると漢話月姫においてきのこさんが述べている。

なんだか前者は真祖、後者は魔術を極めてなった死徒に似ている。秋葉は自分とルーツが同じであるとアルクェイドが言っていた事から、元から人間とは違う鬼種の方は超越種の中の一種族であると思われる。

Pure "Ma."

A species evolutionarily distinct from humans.

Transcendant Kind.

遠野の一族

その起源は「鬼種」とされている。

鬼種には2種類があり、「元から鬼と呼ばれる系統樹からして人間とは違う者」と「力ある者達が土蜘蛛だのなんだのと呼ばれて朝廷から追われて隠れ住むようになって、生物的にちょっとおかしくなってしまった者」。（「漢話月姫」第7回より）

遠野の血脈に混ざっているのは前者。なお現在、純粋な鬼種は絶滅種となっている。

資産家であり、財閥めいた一大グループを築いているが、序列は経済的な裕福さよりも、血の尊さが優先されている。

Alternatively, those humans who went into hiding because possessed capabilities outside the norm (are probably those referred to as Kijin).

At no point is the "Ma" above conflated with "Akuma."

Comparatively, Phantasmal Breeds are defined as:

幻想種

伝説・神話にて登場する生物の総称。文字通り、幻想の中にのみ生きるモノ。

外的要因によって生態系が変貌したモノ、ヒトの想念より生み出されたモノ、長寿により上の段階にあがったモノなどがいる。妖精や巨人と言われる亜人、日本の生粋の鬼や竜と言われる魔獣などがこれに該当する。特に竜種は幻想種の頂点に位置し、最強の幻想種であるとされている。 サーヴァントの宝具として召喚・使役されることもある。

Includes the Pure Oni of Japan.

幻想種（用語）

神話・伝承などに見られる特異な生物。幻想の中にのみ生存するモノ。在り方そのものが神秘であるモノ。魔術が知識で力を蓄えるのに対し彼らは長い寿命で力を蓄える。存在そのものが神秘であるため、それだけで魔術を凌駕するとされる。

外的要因により生態系が変化したモノ、人の想念より誕生したモノ、長寿により上の段階に上がったモノとがいる。

種類としては妖精や巨人といわれる亜人、鬼や竜といわれる魔獣などがあり、中でも竜種は幻想種の最高位にある。

Includes Oni.

In sum, Oni Kind are a Phantasmal Breed, and they are referred to as "Ma," but not "Akuma." Tsukihime defines "Ma" as anything that wields "unnecessary" powers in violation of natural law. This is an incredibly vague definition that encompasses a whole lot of things. "Akuma," by comparison, has a very specific definition.

-- Fallacies (talk) 05:53, February 25, 2017 (UTC)

I see. Thanks for the detailed descriptions, especially the ones on the Oni. I think the definition at the top for 魔 should be slightly changed though, because the way you have it written now, it makes it sound like anything supernatural can be referred to as 魔, so it should say more clearly that 魔 is an actual thing.

I also kind of hate leaving it as "Ma" because that just screams lazy translation, so it'd be great if you could talk it over in BL for a standardized word for it, or just think of one yourself. Zodiac21 (talk) 21:41, February 28, 2017 (UTC)

Humanity Foundation Values in Parameter Rules Article

Hey! I was wondering if you can take a look at the Humanity Foundation Values that I edited in the Parameter Rules article. I checked what you wrote for the Quantum Time-Locks article and applied that to the ranking system for the Humanity Foundation Values. Of course, I am not too confident that the explanation got through or that it is even accurate to what you have typed, so I was wondering if you can check on it and edit it. Thanks!

Doesn't contradict anything that I'm aware of at this time. If I notice anything that indicates otherwise, I'll see about editing.

-- Fallacies (talk) 18:06, March 19, 2017 (UTC)

Minor Questions

Hello Fallacies

Would it be OK to ask a couple of questions regarding Babylonia and Shinjuku?

Inept Wiki User (talk) 13:57, March 22, 2017 (UTC)

Go ahead?

-- Fallacies (talk) 14:31, March 22, 2017 (UTC)

• Babylonia: With regards to Babylonia, what I wish to ask about is the situation concerning Ishtar, Ereshkigal and Rin. From what I had heard, in the Babylonia singularity, Rin was split between the two as hosts. Is this definitely the case, is there any more to it than just a split at the start and a subsequent link, and if it is the case, do you reckon the situation warrants Ereshkigal having Template:Rintabs like Ishtar? (this was the case up until a few days ago, but the commenting-out edit might have been carried out under a mistaken assumption)
• Shinjuku: With regards to Shinjuku, what I wanted to verify was something concerning Baal. From the information you provided in the Beast's Lair, I know that Baal had been waiting for 3000 years for revenge, had been researching methods of merging Phantoms with Heroic Spirits, and either "anticipated" or "designed" the manifestation of the singularity for his plan. A few weeks ago, there was an anonymous edit on Baal's article which removed the mention of waiting 3000 years for revenge and in its place claimed that he had become a phantom for it, which seemed dubious given what had previously been said. I was fairly sure that the addition was incorrect, but I thought I should check before amending it during expansion. Am I correct in assuming that this addition is false information? Also, is there any additional information which should be added to Baal's article when it is expanded?

Inept Wiki User (talk) 00:46, March 23, 2017 (UTC)

Babylonia:

It was never stated that Rin was split into two. Rather, there was one host body, normally occupied by Ishtar. Ereshkigal was confined as a spirit to the Underworld, except at night, when Ishtar (for reasons unknown to herself) felt the need to sleep; when Ishtar was asleep, Ereshkigal was permitted to assert control over Rin's flesh. Ereshkigal's spirit was capable of physically manifesting independent of Rin, but only within the boundaries of the Underworld, or as an insubstantial projection.

Shinjuku:

I don't recall seeing any confirmation that Baal was himself a Phantom. Not having the raw text of the game script at hand, I can't easily confirm this, and so I may be mistaken, but I legitimately don't believe that this was the case.

However, he does explicitly state that he dedicated 3000 years to researching the possibility of fusing Heroic Spirits and Phantoms (as in, HS to HS, Phantom to Phantom, and HS to Phantom) for the purpose of attaining his revenge; he also states that the Shinjuku Singularity was prepared as a stage, as only within a timeline abandoned by the Counter Forces / disassociated from the History of Man could Baal's method of HS / Phantom fusion be performed.

Now, it may be possible that I missed something, and that Baal did in fact state that he fused himself with a Phantom for the purpose of fulfilling his revenge.

However, given what we know of Baal's actual revenge plot, it shouldn't have been necessary for him to do this. The purpose of his efforts at researching HS / Phantom fusion was to empower the Noble Phantasm of Der Freischütz. Originally, NPs associated with Phantoms are extremely weak -- but Baal discovered that their strength could be significantly boosted if he fused the Phantom bearing the NP he wanted to use with a Heroic Spirit. Ergo, his fusion technique granted Moriarty access to the NP and the Archer class, and legitimized the causality-locking feature of Der Freischütz's Noble Phantasm as a inescapable murder weapon to be used against the Protagonist.

Given the nature of this plan, everyone within the Phantom Fiend Alliance aside from the true Moriarty was completely disposable -- including Baal himself. Thus, it wouldn't have actually been necessary for Baal to make himself into or fuse himself with a Phantom. The only thing necessary was to fool Holmes and the Protagonist into accepting the true Moriarty as an ally. The inevitability of Der Freischütz's Noble Phantasm would've taken care of the rest.

Ergo, yes, as far as I can tell, you can treat the anonymous edit as false information unless otherwise proven. If I can find a script dump, I'll attempt to confirm or deny it myself. I don't have anything else to add to Baal's profile at present time.

-- Fallacies (talk) 12:20, March 23, 2017 (UTC)

Would it be OK to ask a few questions regarding Phantoms, Fallacies?

Inept Wiki User (talk) 13:37, June 21, 2017 (UTC)

Go ahead? -- Fallacies (talk) 15:29, June 21, 2017 (UTC)

I thought that the section on Phantoms could do with a bit of expansion so I was getting together information currently available for Phantoms to see what could be done. However I wasn't entirely sure whether the assembled information was complete or whether any mistakes had crept in. I thought you'd probably be the best person here to ask about it:

Here's what has been gathered so far (from the wiki and translations, including your notes about Shinjuku):

• Phantoms are existences slightly similar to but unable to become Heroic Spirits, and normally unable to constitute a Saint Graph and be summoned as Servants.
• The method of fusing Phantoms with Heroic Spirits, considered impossible by Da Vinci, was devised by Baal and required the conditions within the Shinjuku Singularity, where the Common Sense of Man was inactive.
  • The fusion can involve multiple Phantoms or Phantoms and Heroic Spirits, the result being an enhanced Servant with additional Skills or a Class change from normal.
• Shakespeare and Andersen are capable of summoning Phantoms. Shakespeare was being held captive by the villains for this reason, being made to summon to bolster their forces. The two summon fictitious Great Detective Phantoms to assist you in the final battle, which have a collective Noble Phantasm involving the "pronouncement of guilt."
• Known Phantoms include Christine, Der Freischütz, Great Detectives, Doppelganger, Hessian, Lobo and an invisibility-bestowing one (The Invisible Man?).

Assumptions, observations and other:

• Phantoms are not normally present on the Throne of Heroes.
• Phantoms are similar but not the same as Wraiths.
• Phantoms can be fictitious but not necessarily exclusively.
• The two Casters known to be capable of summoning Phantoms are both writers and have displayed similar stuff through their NPs.

Is this information fully correct and is there any stuff which has been missed out (particularly with regards to nature, criteria or summoning)?

Inept Wiki User (talk) 00:28, June 22, 2017 (UTC)

I rendered the following speed-trans from the Shinjuku Singularity:

霊基数値が満たない虚構、

A fabrication too inadequate in inflection to constitute a Saint Graph;

精々が都市伝説程度の概念。

a concept that at most reaches the strength of an Urban Legend.

英霊にも反英霊にもなれぬ、

That which can become neither a Heroic Spirit nor an Anti-Hero;

朽ちてきえるだけの存在。

an existence destined only for decay.

我らはそれを「幻霊」と呼ぶ。

We refer to such beings as 「Phantoms」.

They're similar to Heroic Spirits in that they have a legend, but one that isn't strong or coherent enough to qualify them for a placement upon the Throne. Their absence from the Throne was explicitly confirmed.

It would be more accurate to say that Phantoms are unable to independently manifest as Saint Graphs. The exact terminology is 霊基数値が満たない, translated above as "inadequate in inflection" -- but more literally, "spiritual foundation values are insufficient / not full." Unlike existences that get recorded to the Throne, Phantoms aren't permanent, and will thus presumably unravel in time -- though the conditions for unravelling are unspecified in text.

Phantoms and Wraiths are not the same, and are not mutually exclusive categories.

• Christine was a Wraith that classified as a Phantom, as she was a legitimate historical personage from some timeline, who failed to become a Heroic Spirit due to the insignificance of her legend; ergo, she was a Wraith because she was a deceased individual possessed of a soul, and because she wasn't recorded to the Throne, her soul wasn't perfectly preserved.
• By contrast, the Great Detectives were fictitious personages that were never human in the first place, and therefore cannot qualify as Wraiths.
• Per the above, Phantoms cannot manifest as complete Saint Graphs, but Wraiths such as the Hassans and Sasaki Kojirou are deceased souls that can legally be summoned as Servants with valid Saint Graphs, despite not being recorded within the Throne. Neither the Hassans nor the Wraith that was summoned as Kojirou are considered as Phantoms, but the situation with the legend of Sasaki Kojirou is unclear; Sasaki Kojirou does not exist within the Throne.

In summary, something can be both a Phantom and a Wraith at the same time, or strictly one or the other.

It was implied within the Singularity that fusions banned under the Common Sense include "Heroic Spirit + Heroic Spirit" -- or in general, anything that compromises the "identity" of a discrete existence within the recognition of the Common Sense. This is why the Personal Skill of Self-Modification is said to detract from one's status as a "proper hero." However, Moon Cell is outside the purview of the Common Sense, and BB was thus able to arbitrarily fuse Divine Spirits and so forth in CCC.

Regarding Shakespeare and Andersen:

Yes, they were indeed capable of "fabricating" Phantoms (not the same as summoning), but the precise mechanics aren't specified. Shakespeare's baseline NP in Apocrypha Novel and Grand Order does indeed hold the capacity of "fabricating characters," but his NPs in Apocrypha Design Document don't contain anything of the sort. Andersen's known NP functions as empowerment of a specific individual, and doesn't involve fabrication of a character from scratch -- even if this was what he was known for as one of the Three Great Writers of children's literature.

-- Fallacies (talk) 04:49, June 22, 2017 (UTC)

I see. Thank you for making things clearer, Fallacies.

Given how you mentioned that some of the key mechanics and conditions aren't specified, would I be correct in assuming that there isn't any more information at present concerning the following; the minimum Phantom qualification criteria (though this is probably something similar to the matter of the other criteria, something kept flexible to a certain degree for convenience), other summoning/fabrication methods (given the mechanics of the existing fabrication method not being elaborated) and what others may be capable of bringing them forth (though one can speculate).

Also, with regards to the list of named Phantoms, is the one currently on the Phantom section complete? (with that other one a matter of speculation)

Inept Wiki User (talk) 21:58, June 22, 2017 (UTC)

The minimum qualification criteria for legends to become Phantoms is unclear, but Phantoms are roughly referenced as "being of the same scale as an urban legend"; the threshold over which a legend becomes a Heroic Spirit is likewise unclear. As Phantoms aren't recorded to the Throne, they aren't permanent, but unlike the well-established decay of Wraiths, we don't know the precise process by which they unravel, as they aren't necessarily souls / spiritual structures. The fabrication mechanic is extremely vague, but it's implied that Baal and Moriarty would've had significantly more trouble manifesting Phantoms if not for Shakespeare.

The Saint Graphs of Heroic Spirits manifested as Servants are accorded with certain privileges owing to legends subsumed into the recognition of the Common Sense; to some extent, this is how the Beasts come to be Beasts. Ergo, we can speculate that Phantoms function on a similar basis.

The list isn't complete. The Phantoms of a bunch of Shakespeare characters such as King Lear, Macbeth, and Romeo & Juliet that were fused into common enemies during the Shinjuku Singularity -- though I don't remember all of them off-hand. For reference, you could look in the Grand Order Wikia entry for the Shinjuku Singularity Main Quest.

-- Fallacies (talk) 07:27, June 23, 2017 (UTC)

Understood. Thanks, Fallacies.

One other minor question regarding Phantoms for the time being. With regards to the playable Phantom Servants, are the recording/storage/summoning circumstances not elaborated in this case?

On a separate note, just out of curiosity, can you think of any historical figures who are notable for developing lesser-known or less-developed legends/stories into well-known or well-developed ones (in the Nasuverse or real life)? (I was just thinking about who might fit within that area)

Not all that long to EoR Chapter 2 now. I feel like something similar might be coming along them and I'm curious to see what does...

Inept Wiki User (talk) 15:46, June 25, 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the background circumstances of the playable Phantoms are not elaborated upon at present time. It's hard to say what Type Moon considers notable or non-notable as a legend.

-- Fallacies (talk) 17:30, June 25, 2017 (UTC)

I've updated the Phantom entry. Is it up to scratch? Inept Wiki User (talk) 15:29, June 27, 2017 (UTC)

Looks good. What we got about doppelganger was that in the act of transformation, it takes on all of the characteristics of the individual being mimicked, including things such as memories, to some extent. Though, I'm not sure if it was actually established that Yan Qing was independently a Heroic Spirit; IIRC, Baal says something about how he couldn't properly reach the Throne because he was canonically a master of disguise in the Water Margin novel. If I get the rawtext script, I'll try to find the source for that.

-- Fallacies (talk) 16:35, June 27, 2017 (UTC)

Quick check on a little point, Fallacies; in the untranslated version of Septem, is Caligula the one who killed Nero's court magus (Simon Magus?)? Inept Wiki User (talk) 20:19, August 25, 2017 (UTC)

Yes, by Caligula -- but off the top of my head, I don't recall if the magus' identity was confirmed.

-- Fallacies (talk) 20:48, August 25, 2017 (UTC)

Bunrei

Tthe JP you provided only talk about Gods and Beasts. Therefore it's not enough if you try to drag bunrei into Beast page. That's why the reddit link is better cuz it's full translation. But if you remove the bunrei then your link is enough.

Bunrei part is: アレは神の分け御魂であるが、 人に裏切られ、邪悪に変成し、多くの人命、 多くの国を滅ぼしてきた害悪じゃ。It's about Tamamo. After she said that, Hakuno said there must be a reason behind Tamamo's actions. Then Amaterasu used HER own circumstances as a Beast to explain Tamamo's Beast transformation.

Remember that Tamamo is a different being from Amaterasu now and Extra mats said that even if she turns 9 tails she would not become Amaterasu. Therefore while Tamamo can turn Beast under similar influences like Amaterasu, Beast Amaterasu is different from Beast Tamamo. Nasu already showed how 9 tails Tamamo saved Hakuno in her servant ending of the game and she acted nothing like Amaterasu, because she didn't turn Beast yet in that scene. 

Oh you were the one who wrote the wrong pronunciation for 魔神柱 in the first place, according to edit log, that was a kinda lame mistake lol. I only noticed the 神 part so I corrected that part. And I already fixed the ones in Demon God page just now btw. Laeticia (talk) 20:20, May 20, 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for being rude?

-- Fallacies (talk) 06:05, May 21, 2017 (UTC)