Forum:Fate/Extra name use

As I noted here, the wiki seems to use the Japanese terms over the English terms...and rarely, if ever, note the English terms at all. So I decided, since I have the game with me, I'd note them here.

EDIT: I found someone who was willing to translate the original Japanese for me, and I will note their responses next to the note in question on this list. Thanks to lu127 over at the TV Tropes Nasu thread and all.

Here is what I got:

Playable Saber

Magic Resistance -> Anti-Magic (Anti-Magic is the exact translation)

Imperial Privilege -> Royal Prerogative (the in game skill is Emperor's Prerogative, but the effect of that is so dissimilar to the stated effect of Royal Prerogative that I do question if they are the same thing.) (Imperial Privilege is the exact translation)

Headache Sufferer -> Migraine ("Headache Sufferer" is overly literal, the kanji means "one who holds/has a headache" and "Migraine" gets the meaning across better.)

Aestus Domus Aurea: Golden Theater Swing -> Aestus Domus Aurea: Golden Theater of the Deranged (shortened to "Theater of the Deranged" on the skill menu) ("Golden Theater Swing" and "Golden Theater of the Deranged" are wrong. The kanji 蕩 means "swing" in Chinese, but in Japanese, the kanji can mean "melt" or "charm". 招き means "invitation". So...uhh... EDIT: Lu notes that "Flamboyant" might work, so "Golden Theater of the Flamboyant" is closest.)

Playable Archer

Eye of the Mind (False) -> False Insight (Does this make the other Eye of the Mind "True Insight"?) (Eye of the Mind (False) is the exact translation)

Crane Wing Three Realm -> Wing of the Crane

(Hrunting) Hound of the Red Planes -> Red Hound (the Japanese can be read as "Primative Red Hound" or "Hound of the Red Plains")

(Rio Aias) The Seven Rings that Cover the Fiery Heavens -> 7 Rings of Heaven ("The Seven Rings that Cover the Fiery Heavens" is an exact translation)

(Caladblog II) The Fake Spiral Sword -> Fake Helix Sword (both are valid)

Unlimited Blade Works: Infinite Creation of Swords -> Unlimited Blade Works: Universe of Endless Blades ("Infinite Creation of Swords" is closer)

Playable Caster

Witchcraft -> Maleficium (both are valid. Maleficium is Latin for "harmful magic")

Tokoyo Sakisaku Daisakkai/Red Spider Lily Killing Stone -> Land of Eternal Bane/Red Lily of the Killing Stone of Nasu (I think? It doesn't help that the Wiki doesn't translate what the first bit means) (the Japanese translates to "Distant Land of the Torn Blossom". This means that the Japanese used here refers to the attack, not the killing stone.)

Suiten Nikki Amaterasu Yanoshisu Ishi -> The Eightfold Blessing of Amaterasu (shortened to "Blessings of Amaterasu" on the skill menu) (...uhh, Lu couldn't exactly translate it, due to it being really old Japanese that even the Japanese would have trouble with. She got "Eightfold Blessings of Amaterasu on the sunken stone under the sunlit watery heavens" and "sunlight of the water god", but noted that even those probably aren't right.)

Rider

Voyager of the Storm -> Rider on the Storm ("Voyager of the Storm" is closer)

Pioneer of the Stars -> Settler of the Stars (Either one works)

Golden Wild Hunt: The Night of the Golden Hind and the Storm -> Hunt of the Golden Hind: Golden Stag and the Eventide Tempest (the literal translation is "Night of the golden hind and the storm: Golden Wild Hunt", so the former is closer)

Archer

Protection of the Fairies (Lu got "Protection of the Spirits", but went "ok")

Independent Action -> Independence ("Independent Action" is the exact translation)

Subversive Activities -> Subversion (Lu noted that they are pretty much the same)

Yew Bow: The Bow of Prayer -> Yew Bow: Holy Bow of Supplication ("Bow of Prayer" is the exact translation)

Caster

Territory Creation (no change, but shortened to Area Creation on the first page of the Matrices for both Casters) (both are valid)

Self-Modification -> Metamorphosis (Pretty much the same. Metamorphosis is just added Greek)

Shapeshift -> Transformation (both valid)

The Queen's Glass Game: Perpetual Engine - Maiden Empire -> Maxwell's Demon - Maiden's Empire: Queens Glass Game ("The Queen's Glass Game: Perpetual Engine - Maiden Empire" is the exact translation.)

Arcserker

Mad Enchantment -> Blind Rage ("Mad Enchantment" is a better fit)

Mystic Eyes -> Demonic Eye (it's worth noting that the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception are still referred to as such) ("Demon Eye" is the exact translation)

Original One -> Origin of All (the Japanese actually means "Primordial one")

Blut der Schwester -> Blut die Schwester (...wait, the NP page already redirects to Blut die Schwester?) ("Blut der Schwester" appears to be correct, but Lu doesn't speak German. If I recall, it got moved to Blut die Schwester because that was more grammatically correct?)

Vlancer

Protection of the Faith -> Aegis of the Divine (shortened to Divine Aegis on the first page of his Matrix) (Lu got "Divine Protection of the Faith")

Innocent Monster -> Seraphic Monstrosity ("Innocent Monster" is the exact translation)

Kazikli Bey: Fortress of Impalement (no change)

Assassin

Presence Concealment -> Obfuscation ("Presence Concealment" is closer)

Chinese Martial Arts -> Liuhe Quan ("Liuhe Quan" appears to be a type of martial arts, but it wasn't in Lu's area of expertise)

Sphere Boundary -> Concealment ("Sphere Boundary" is more literal)

No Second Strike (no change)

Lancer

Battle Continuation -> Marshall ("Battle Continuation" is almost exact)

Divinity (no change)

Gae Bolg: Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death -> Gae Bolg: Spear of Barbaric Impalement ("Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death" is more literal)

Lu Buserker

Nature of a Rebellious Spirit -> Restless Soul (the Japanese translates to "Rebellious Spirit" or the like)

Bravery -> Fortitude ("Bravery" is the exact term")

God Force: The Five Soldiers of the War God -> God Force: The Five Warriors of Guan Yu (both "warriors" and "soldiers" are valid. "Guan Yu" does mean "war god", but Lu admitted that Chinese isn't her specialty. Doing some research on my own, "Chi You" fits more in context)

Saber

Riding -> Dragoon ("Riding" is closer)

Numeral of the Saint (no change)

Excalibur Galatine: The Reborn Sword of Victory -> Excalibur Galatine: The Resurrected Sword of Victory (shortened to just "Sword of Victory" in game, if I recall) (Both are pretty much the same)

Saver -> Savior ("Saver" is closer to the katakana)

Rin Tohsaka -> Rin Tousaka (while I am here I guess)

Lanrukun -> Lil' Ronnie (this one is no longer an issue, since the page is currently at her real name, and uses Lil' Ronnie for the nickname anyway)

That's what I got just going by the Matrix and what memory I have of the boss battles. So what should we do about this?--Otherarrow (talk) 20:26, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Alternate redirects and noting them should suffice. I think the nihongo template has an automatic "lit." in the fourth section. Removing that and using that section to put some variation of "X in the Fate/Extra localization" (like in Rin Tohsaka (Fate/Extra)) would be suitable. EGGS (talk) 21:18, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

On the same note, I noticed that articles tend to alternate between using Saver and Savior, with most of them using the later actually. So which should we use? Also, at the same time, while I get not wanting to change the terms that have been established as such in English in prior official material (such as Battle Continuation, Presence Concealment, and Tohsaka), I do think that referring to the Extra exclusive terms/skills by their Japanese names on a English wiki is potentially misleading and makes us come off as stubborn purists (for lack of a better term)--Otherarrow (talk) 22:02, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Someone randomly went through at some point to switch them to Savior. I meant to switch them back, but I guess I forgot. I'd rather avoid using the English ones because it should really be either all inclusive or not at all, and the fact that it is only a side game. If Fate/stay night were localized, I'd probably be for switching, but the somewhat spotty quality of the translation sort of puts me off of relying on Extra. EGGS (talk) 22:13, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, were you referring to the usage of "Suiten Nikki Amaterasu Yanoshisu Ishi" and the like? I don't really trust Aksys on weird stuff like that, so I had been hoping that someone would provide a proper translation, especially when Suiten seems to have a title that was never translated. EGGS (talk) 22:16, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Well yeah. Stuff like that over Eightfold Blessing of Amaterasu, Innocent Monster over Seraphic Monstrosity, Saver over Savior, Imperial Privilege over Royal Prerogative, etc. While not a perfect translation, it is the one we officially got, and I don't really feel comfortable of taking fan translations of the Japanese terms (or in some cases, not even that. The names the wiki uses for Blessings of Amaterasu and Land of Eternal Bane aren't even in English) as "more official" than the official stuff we got. While on the same subject, I noticed that the wiki seems to be currently in a weird state of mind where pages are renamed based questionable romanizations in Japanese material, but actual, bonafide localization is either not noted at all or (as you are suggesting) be made essentially a footnote. I admit, this is just me, but that seems backwards. EDIT:I am not saying that we change the names that were carried over from FSN, as I am under the impression that those were actually localized as such somewhere. Two animes came over, and both got dubs. A fighting game came over. The terms probably have come up in English before Extra, and thus have priority for usage in English. I admit, this may seem odd coming from me since I am a stickler for consistency, but what I am suggesting is at least a little more consistent than what we are doing now. (Sorry, I didn't see your first post re:Savior)--Otherarrow (talk) 22:40, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, that's been one of my overall contentions for not bothering to do it. It always seemed better to just stick with the more common translations than bother mixing and matching stuff. The other problem is still the actual quality of the translation. I believe I've seen people mention that at least some of the skills were messed up. God Force's title is blatantly wrong for one thing. If someone could confirm which ones actually match, I guess I wouldn't be against it. EGGS (talk) 23:03, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, "Five Warriors of Guan Yu" is blatantly wrong, as "Guan Yu" is a mistranslation of Chi You. That's the only one I can think of as being outright wrong though. The rest (as I noticed from compiling this list) say basically the same thing, but phrased differently or use slightly different terminology. I admit this is subjective, but I actually personally think that some of the localized terms get the point across better and the translated versions of Japanese terms are just awkward sounding. And again, there is shit like how some of the terms we use aren't even translated at all. I'll be honest, "stick with more common translations" is troublesome because doing so requires just as much mixing and matching of terms, as fan translation isn't consistent due to their being so many different groups translating this stuff. And, this is entirely just me, but I do think "the official localization is imperfect, so we shouldn't count it and consider potentially equally faulty fan-translations as 'more canon'" does sound wrong to me. EDIT: But I admit, I am probably asking for too much. The fan translated Extra terms, as wrong or awkward as they may be, have been ingrained deeply into the Wiki, and what I am suggesting would require a lot of work, work that no one really wants to do I reckon. I should probably be content with just getting the localized terms acknowledged at all. Sorry.--Otherarrow (talk) 23:31, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

It does make sense overall. My main problem, as before, is that there are currently four completely separate localizations of the Fate franchise, all of which have at least some differences. There's no real issue with using Extra stuff, but it's just that it would be an overall hodgepodge of terms. If we do bother, I definitely would like to ask someone to check the translations though. I don't know if "Maxwell's Demon" was just a localization choice, but it doesn't seem to reflect the original at all. EGGS (talk) 17:09, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

I admit, I don't know my science enough to comment on if Maxwell's Demon would be an accurate localization. A quick glance says that no, it's not the exact same thing, but...I wouldn't say it's completely unrelated either? Maxwell's Demon is a thought experiment about a hypothetical scenerio in which a demon would open and close a door between two chambers so that particles would pass through selectively, cooling one while heating up the other, and thus reducing entropy or something. A Perpetual Engine...apparently doesn't refer to anything specific, but it gives to mind an engine that never runs out of usable energy (and thus isn't affected by entropy, at least from my limited understanding of the term). However, I know all of jack shit about science and am generally talking about my ass, so yes, I would ask for a second opinion on that.

As for the actual "important to the wiki" stuff, yeah, I do get what you mean. Since we don't have a consistent translation of terms no matter which way we go, and (currently at least), the fan translation stuff is slightly more consistent (even if solely because of the reason of "person who translated Y used the translation of terms that X used to show consistency between projects, even if the translations that X used weren't 100% accurate".) it does seem logical to stick with them for the time being...even if I personally don't like the idea (for the same problem I have with "Y uses it because X uses it, even if X wasn't necessary correct"). And yes, I do think we should get someone to double check the terms for accuracy, but at the same time, I don't think we should say "oh, the localized term is wrong because the term isn't 1-to-1 the same as in the Japanese version". If they got the gist of it right, if it has the same meaning and all that, then I'd count it as "right". What I mean is, like, "Reborn Sword of Victory" versus "Resurrected Sword of Victory", that's fine. They mean the same thing. Likewise, "Innocent Monster" versus "Seraphic Monstrosity", it's not exactly identical, but they both get the same idea across. However, the title of God Force, where it outright mistranslates the War God's name (where the Japanese version doesn't seem to name him at all, at least in the NP title), yeah that would be wrong and probably noted as such somehow. I hope I am making sense?--Otherarrow (talk) 00:07, June 19, 2013 (UTC)

(<--) Forgot about this. It's fine if it's just a different flavor of translation, and we'd probably still want to include the fantranslated version in the same manner as I was mentioning above anyway. The main issue is if any were done with the same quality assurance as the "ghost in the machine" line. EGGS (talk) 18:18, June 20, 2013 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I saw that and I do understand where you are coming from. From what I noted above, the main iffy bits are Chi You as Guan Yu (which is outright wrong), the "Maxwell's Demon" bit in Queen's Glass Game (which requires more knowledge of science than I know to say if it's a fair replacement, even if not the same thing), and anything involving the Caster moves that the wiki out and out didn't translate; but the fan translated terms were taken from what the wiki already used, and not the Japanese itself, so yeah. Grain of salt and all. If someone could translate the Japanese itself and compare, that would be lovely. Sorry I can't be of much help outside of what I've already done.--Otherarrow (talk) 23:06, June 20, 2013 (UTC)

Adopting the English localization's naming convention is bad. 

1. They took plenty of liberties. 

2. There were numerous errors. 

3. Adopting localization naming convention will destroy any continuity with existing materials. Are you going to change all the naming in Fate/Stay Night too just for "continuity"? Also, the fandom terms are deepseated and this entire site is the amalgamation of fandom translations, since there is minimal localization of TM materials.

You are just going to shoot yourself in the foot by adopting Asky's translation, unless you want to sieve through the entire wiki to change EVERY instance of fan translation. Waifu slayer (talk) 16:28, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

That's not what is being asked here. The question is not "did they take liberties", but "are those liberties acceptable localizations of the original Japanese". If you want to contribute to a conversation, read the conversation. Jumping in with "they didn't do an exact translation/didn't use the same terms as the fan translation and that is bad!!" doesn't help anything (especially since EGGS and I noted above that liberty can be taken if the same idea gets across) We want to know what the original Japanese said (as, like I said before, what I have listed here are fan translations, which are of questionable accuracy as it is) and compare to see if it's a fair enough change. Errors can be noted where appropriate (for example, God Force will probably be noted as "The Five Warriors of Chi You", which a footnote explaining the naming error). As for naming conventions and consistency, again, if you 'read the conversation, you noticed that we touched on that as well. (My idea is that skills and terms originating from EXTRA would get changed, but ones originating from FSN wouldn't since they were probably named as such in some official English material somewhere). Would it be work to change it? Well yeah. Editing a wiki is work. Sometimes, you have to do some long and tiring editing. Seriously, when I asked for help, I didn't mean for someone to thread hop and contribute nothing, forcing me to recap the topic to explain why they aren't helping. EDIT: Sorry if I came off as rude, but I did get kinda peeved that someone posted on this forum...and didn't add anything new to the conversation, with what they did say indicating that they didn't read the conversation. Geez, that still came off as rude, I apologize.--Otherarrow (talk) 19:26, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

I don't see your point at all. I think it is a huge waste of time. You either go all-in, or you don't. If you do it half-half, you confuse the people who go by fan-translations, as well as people who only knew the localization. Given EVERYTHING ELSE here abides by fan-translation, it is exceedingly pointless to go a half-assed attempt at adopting Asky's localization. 

There may be a point if somehow Asky becomes the official localzation company for the TM intellectual properties, but right now, there is no point. And the "footnote explaining the error" idea is just bad. The wiki's job is not accomadating and explaining errors, it is to present accurate information. Waifu slayer (talk) 20:41, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

And that's the thing. Our job is to present accurate information. The translation of Fate/Extra we got from Aksys is the official translation we got. It was an official release, properly licensed and all of that. Anything that comes from it is accurate, canon, etc, unless proven otherwise through contradiction with other official material. And I don't mean "they didn't translate the name of Saber's Noble Phantasm the same way as the fan translation did!" or other such liberties as a contradiction. I mean out and out errors, like the "ghost in the machine" bit and the use of "Guan Yu" in place of "Chi You". There is a difference between choosing to localize a term differently than a straight translation and an outright error. Now, here is where I am getting with this: I feel that official versus unofficial, official should always win. I do believe that we should sort out priorities for these sorts of things (as in official translation from one source -> official translation from another source -> fan translation of official source, etc) but to just completely disregard an official localization on the grounds of "it's not perfect!" or "it's not like the fan translation!", no, I'm sorry. I can't accept that. As for "half assed attempt at adopting localization"...you do notice that the terms we use are a mismash of various fan and official translations, right? You do know that everything Type-Moon has done hasn't been officially translated, right? No matter what we do, we are going to have a mixture of different things from different sources. The consistency will always be "half assed" unless a miracle happens and someone officially brings over every piece of Type-Moon fiction in English. We should make do with what we have. If that makes sense. I feel I am repeating myself.--Otherarrow (talk) 21:01, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

Still don't see your point. When the "official" was obviously done by someone with no background in Asian culture and the Fate franchise, it is worse than garbage and will mislead fans who are trying to grasp the convoluted lore. 

Furthremore, for better or for worse, the terms used here are accepted by most of the community, and learning the terms will help new comers communicate with the fandom. Introduce a new phrase for established concepts is confusing and misleading. Granted, if Aksys continute to localize and translate a large portion of Type Moon's intellectual property, then your argument has merit. 

Given now MOST of TM's works have been translated by fans, and fans already have a set of estalished jargons, trying to add to it is pointless and a waste of time. 

If you really want to be a guardian of canon, go hunt the speculations in this wiki and try to cite sources for all statements. 

What you are proposing now is a waste of time. 

Waifu slayer (talk) 21:15, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

My point is that canon is canon. Official is official. Unofficial is unofficial. If you can't grasp that, I'm sorry, but you are beyond my help.

"No background in Asian culture and the Fate franchise". Baseless statement much? You do know who Aksys is right? They are a game publisher. It's their job to translate, localize, and publish games, and Fate/Extra was far from their first product. Ever played BlazBlue? They localized that. Next you are going to go to the BlazBlue Wiki, or whatever, and argue that they shouldn't use anything from the Western release of BlazBlue since it was translated by someone with "no background in Asian culture and the BlazBlue franchise". Geez. Get a grip. (I don't think they brought over Unlimited Codes, but I think that was done by Capcom anyway, who has a US branch to do localization and such. CCC, the Vita version of FSN, etc is not announced to be coming over from anyone, Aksys or otherwise)

"worse than garbage and will mislead fans who are trying to grasp the convoluted lore". Pardon? This may sound cliche to use in this kind of arguement, but did you play Fate/Extra? While not perfect, the localization of Fate/Extra was pretty decent, and I was able to grasp the lore and such perfectly fine. Indeed, as a stand alone product, Fate/Extra perfectly understandable and it's lore isn't what I would call "convoluted". Maybe in the context of the Nasuverse as a whole, but that is only because the Nasuverse itself is convoluted and confusing. Using different terms for skills won't suddenly make the Nasuverse more understandable and won't mislead anyone.

Actually, they don't have an established jargon. They have a mostly established jargon through one community translating multiple works, but there is no "this is a list of all the terms you must use if you are translating a Type-Moon product" or anything like that. Did you know that the person who did the fan translation of KnK translated a lot of familiar terms in a completely different way than other fan translations did? I am sure there are other such discrepancies, but that is the big example I know of. Anyway, what other fans do is none of our concern unless we have nowhere else to turn. No offense to you fan translators out there. You do a good job. I do hope that what I am saying is not meant to be a dig towards you.

Actually, several users are trying to cite the information they add and such. So...I don't see what your point is.

That's nice. If you have nothing to contribute, I'd rather you not quip. I am trying to figure out what, if anything, we should do here and so far you have basically repeated things already said, but, and I am sorry if this comes off as rude, worse. At the very least offer something we should do instead, aside from "ignore the localization completely, use only fan translation because." That is counterproductive.--Otherarrow (talk) 21:56, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

Just because they do translation work, does not mean they have a solid grasp. Also, a company is not one person, there are good translators, and there are bad translators. There's definitely evidence that the translator had no idea what some of the terms meant and just ran with his own interpretation to meet deadlines, instead of looking them up. 

As to fan translation, the KnK is a perfect example of straying from the fandom jargon and NOT being adopted by the fandom at all. There is a reason none of those personal jargons were adopted HERE. That's the point when I said the fandom jargons are entrenched. 

It seems to me that you really just want to waste a bunch of time on useless stuff. Your point is basically "AKSYS ACQUIRED THE RIGHTS SO WHAT THEY WROTE GOES". 

Nope. Bad translation is bad, stop wasting your time and trying to make it a thing. Waifu slayer (talk) 22:08, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

I like how you made it blatantly clear that you have no idea what you are talking about. You accuse the translation of being bad and make baseless assumptions about the localization process, but fail to actually back any of it up. when I asked if you actually played the game, you avoided the question. You haven't actually played Fate/Extra, have you? Then, and forgive me if I am being blunt and rude, why are you posting in this topic?

It's one thing if you legitly oppose this because you played Fate/Extra and wasn't pleased with the translation choices, but it's another to go "THE TRANSLATION IS BAD BECAUSE I SAID SO DESPITE THE FACT I NEVER PLAYED THE GAME. FAN TRANSLATION FOR LIFE." and start insulting the publisher with baseless accusations.

Actually, the reason the Wiki doesn't use any of the terms from the KnK translation is because most of the pages were already using the "traditional" terms. It's nothing about us disagreeing with the terms, but rather that when the translation came out, all the affected pages were already using the other translations, so the subsequent edits used those terms for consistency. If we had no KnK coverage before the fan translation, we probably would have used those terms.

Well, yeah. They got the rights, the English version of Fate/Extra is an official release, the terms are official. It's not perfect, and errors have been noted, but my attempts to double check these terms to see if it's a fair enough localization hasn't gotten anywhere. I mean, if we allow, questionable romanizations like "Carigiri" or "Kischur" (hell, we even used "Saver" for Prototype Saber for a while) because they were used in an official source, why is allowing bonafide official English translation getting so much fuss anyway? I never got that.--Otherarrow (talk) 22:26, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

Of course I know what I am talking about, I actively contribute to the community. I also know what I am talking about when I say the Aksys translation is not the greatest thing and no better compared to the fan translation. 

What you are proposing makes no sense, and may actually be detrimental. Waifu slayer (talk) 22:30, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

Actively contribute to the community and yet you have never lifted a finger to help this Wiki (seriously, all your time here was spent chatting on forums and talk pages). Sorry, I find that kinda...interesting. When I questioned what you were saying here, you started slinging out baseless accusations with no proof other than "I said so" and made it clear you never actually played the game in question and was going on hearsay. While it might be tempting to take someone on their word when they say something, especially when part of a community and the person is your senior in said community, if you want to contribute to a project like this, actually acting on first hand experience (and actually having the game to reference) is something that is usually recommended. As for it making no sense...I still don't understand what you mean by that. I fail to see how it is detrimental, however, and, forgive me for more rudness, but you aren't doing a good job on selling me on that. I am sorry, but we have been contributing to this derail for long enough. If you can't help me on the topic at hand, the most you can do is find someone who can. (Of course, you have a clear, if baseless, bias so...) I am sorry for wasting your time.--Otherarrow (talk) 22:48, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

Now you are just being juvenille.

But if you really want to compare senority and contributions, you are the one that should pipe down. This wiki borrowed a lot of stuff I have translated and I have always been cool with it. I considered it an honour.

Just because this account is new, does not mean I am new to TM and made 0 contributions.

And yes, the translations are not great. Even from the ones you listed, if you compared it with the Japanese, they are really off.

Waifu slayer (talk) 22:55, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

This is just a stream of edit conflicts! Sorry. Sorry. I will try to have all of this sorted out.

I didn't know you were a translator and translated a lot of the stuff used on the wiki. I apologize for being so presumptuous, but from my view point, you were just an opinionated forumite (no offense, that's a slang term I picked up for folks who do nothing on wikis but chat on forums and such). Most of your edits before this were just casual chit chat on talk pages, you see... The fact that you avoided the question of actually playing the game and started slinging out baseless accusation didn't really help my impression...

Like I said before, there is a difference with being off and being wrong. If it gets the same meaning across, should we hold it against it if the translation isn't a straight translation?

I do aplogize for the insult. Do you go by a different name elsewhere, btw? I might recognize you more if you did.--Otherarrow (talk) 23:03, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

Changing the terms is a terrible idea if you want the wiki to be remotely respectable. Use the terms that the majority of the fandom uses. -- Cherry Lover (talk) 13:57, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

Personally, the whole thing is a hodgepodge of slightly different terms and translations given the range of different translators (I think there are three versions of some of the CCC profiles), so it doesn't really matter so long as the terms aren't truly wrong. Even if the official terms are adopted, I would still like to keep an "also translated as X" for the previous translation, and even if the current terms remain the same, I would like to have an "X in English Extra" note. I think the best thing for the current moment is to at least note the Aksys translation, and then go from there if someone wants to validate any of them later. EGGS (talk) 22:44, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry! Sorry! My edit somehow overrode your edit! My bad. Forgive me. But yes, I agree that no matter what we do, we should note the other translation. If the consensus is to just note it for the time being, I am fine with that. I do personally feel that the localization should take precedence over the fan translation, but if consensus rules me out, so be it.--Otherarrow (talk) 22:58, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

It would be a terrible idea to use Askys translation, because it is not good. For example, Sabre's "Migraine" is not migraine because it was not "偏頭痛" in the original. Golden Theatre of Degranged is not really that because the original mentioned no "derangement" at all. False Insight is not really "insight" because "心眼" implies "mind's eye" or instinct. "Wing of the Crane" completely cut out the original text's description of "Crane Wing Triple Strike". List goes on and on....

It is just bad practice to use the Aksys's translation, since you miss out on all the nuiances, AND they add their own incorrect interpretations sometimes. 

Waifu slayer (talk) 23:08, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

Now, those are not straight translations. That much is noted, but...are they truely incorrect? Migraine, for example, gets the same idea across as "headache sufferer". After all, what is a migraine? A disorder characterized by recurring headaches. Golden Theatre of the Deranged, yes no derangement is mentioned in the original Japanese, but, and I admit this is entirely personal opinion (so disregard if you like), the NP being named that in the localization does fit with Saber's character and the purpose of the NP. Saber has deranged herself into thinking that she is a master of the arts, and locks people into her theatre and forces them to witness her performance. So while not exact, I wouldn't say it's a mistranslation either. Wing of the Crane...eh. I am kinda iffy on this one. It does omit the "triple strike" but it does include the rest of the term and phrases it a pleasing way (more personal opinions, but "Crane Wing Triple Strike" sounds kinda blunt and awkward). It's possible that space limitations came into play as well. False Insight, well yes. Insight is not instinct. So that one is fair. What I mean by these contentions is, well, we shouldn't just say "it's not a direct translation, therefore it is wrong". I hope I make sense.--Otherarrow (talk) 23:21, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

It should have occured to you that, when you have to rationalize and defend a translation in order for it to convey its original meaning, the translation has failed. The correct translation should be left as it is now, the Aksys translation should be mentioned, and a redirect be put in place just in case someone searches with the Aksys translation. 

People who get here are those who want to learn about "Fate/EXTRA by Nasu", not "Fate/EXTRA Presented/Interpreted by Aksys". Waifu slayer (talk) 23:35, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

Except I didn't have to rationalize anything. I had to explain the context. There is a difference. If you just say "Golden Theater Swing and Golden Theater of the Deranged, which is right" without any context as to what it is, no one will understand what you mean. In the context of the game itself, such a explaination isn't needed, because Saber's character and the in game descriptions establish the context. No one who is actually playing the game will question why it is called "Golden Theater of the Deranged".

Localization isn't just doing a straight translation of the work. It is expected that sometimes changes are to be made to get the meaning across, to let things flow better, to fit space constants, and even just for flavor.

Also, I don't like you misrepresenting my providing of context to prove a point. Are you really that low on actual evidence that you have to stoop to such a thing?

EDIT:Also, people are here to learn about "Fate/EXTRA". Not "Fate/EXTRA as translated by a bunch of Internet people they never met" or "Fate/EXTRA as presented by Aksys". Fate/EXTRA. (I am sorry, but I find that argument rather foolish. That's like saying that we shouldn't reference any translations because it's "Type-Moon Presented/Interpreted by the Internet/Aksys/Capcom/dubbing companies/whoever" and not "Type-Moon by Nasu")--Otherarrow (talk) 23:48, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

I don't see your point. 

If you have to go "ya, this is not what the original said, but you know if you read all this stuff, it sort of makes sense... I can see where they are going", then the translation is bad. 

Do something more constructive with your time. 

Waifu slayer (talk) 00:00, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

My point was that while it is not what the original said, it makes sense in context. Nothing more. I didn't mean that you had to read a bunch of stuff to get it. (Heck, out of context, "Golden Theater Swing" doesn't mean anything either. By your logic, that is a badly translated name and should be translated as something more clear.) Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Actually, I am. Thanks for the concern though. I am sorry for us fighting and wish we could speak this out more peacefully.--Otherarrow (talk) 00:08, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

I never said Golden Theatre Swing is right. It is a mistranslation. The original meaning is not "swing" but "flamboyant". There's still no indication of "deranged" though. Waifu slayer (talk) 00:17, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

Really? That's pretty neat actually. I didn't know that. Thanks. So the proper translation would be "Golden Theater of the Flamboyant" or "Flamboyant Golden Theater" or the like?--Otherarrow (talk) 00:21, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

I've been thinking on this a bit, and how about a compromise? We note the English localization (as EGGS suggested), but we "clean up" the fan translations we use, based on things noted above from Lu's translation (if Waifu slayer wants to give his input as well, go ahead). As this indicates, most of the terms will not be changed (as most of them either fit the fan terms more, or could go either way).

Here are things I notice right away would be changed.

• "Headache Sufferer" would be "Migraine", since the latter gets the idea across without being too literal.
• Golden Theater Whatever would probably be "Golden Theater of the Flamboyant", as Waifu slayer implied.
• "Untranslated Caster Attack Name" would be "Distant Land of the Torn Blossom" (the localization being "Land of Eternal Bane")
• Caster's NP would probably be "The Eightfold Blessings of Amaterasu" after all, as that does seem to be a shortening of a possible translation of the term used. Unless you want to use the massively long translation or keep it in Japanese (which I will actively fight against btw. I do think that keeping it as-is is more confusing than no.)
• "Mystic Eyes" (the skill, not the concept) would probably become "Demon Eye" or "Demonic Eye", unless someone can tell me that "Mystic Eye" is also a valid translation. If it is, we go with that since it's a familiar term. (But only if it is a valid translation. I'd feel wrong about using a "wrong" translation solely because it conflates it with a similar term.)
• "Original One" would become "Primordial One". The Wiki currently used "Ultimate One", but I am not sure if this is a valid translation or not.
• Protection of the Faith would just get a "Divine" placed at the front
• "Nature of a Rebellious Spirit" would become either "Rebellious Spirit" or "Restless Soul". Whichever. Not sure where "Nature of" comes from, going by Lu's translation.
• "The Five Warriors of the War God" would probably stay as is, as though Chi You fits in context, I don't think the Japanese itself specifies. If Chi You is fine though, whatever.

Not too bad right? Suggestions and complaints are welcome.--Otherarrow (talk) 17:23, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

Changing "Magic Resistance" to "Anti-Magic" seems weird. It is, I presume, the same skill that exists in FSN, which is listed as "Magic Resistance", and Magic Resistance is a more logical way of describing it. The rest sounds perhaps reasonable, though. Cherry Lover (talk) 01:39, August 28, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I can see how Magic Resistance and Anti-Magic could be both valid translations of the same thing. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the exact same term in FSN and thus would translate to "Anti-Magic" there too, but if it's the same, yeah, it's no biggy to keep it "Magic Resistance".--Otherarrow (talk) 01:53, August 28, 2013 (UTC)

I don't know for sure if it's the same, but I would imagine so, since it seems to describe the same basic ability (and Magic Resistance is a class skill for the Saber class). If it is the same, then I would strongly oppose changing it, since "Magic Resistance" is a far better translation of what it actually does, and people who have played through the FSN Visual Novel would be very confused to see it named differently. Cherry Lover (talk) 14:17, August 28, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I do understand that. While "Anti-Magic" is the strictly literal translation, Magic Resistance gets across the meaning better, even if both imply the same thing. I do think they are the same btw, since the Japanese I sent to Lu was what the Wiki used for Magic Resistance, and she got Anti-Magic. I removed Anti-Magic from the list, thanks.--Otherarrow (talk) 14:26, August 28, 2013 (UTC)

It seems fine overall. I think Ultimate One is one of those terms where the ruby word above it is a slight variation, Ultimate Ones (原初の一（アルテミット・ワン）^?, Ultimate One (Original One)), so it may be that both are valid. Someone would have to clarify it though. I would also like to see if there is any way to actually translate Caster's Noble Phantasm into anything legible in English, seeing as the Eightfold Blessings seems to be an interpretation of it. I don't think I've ever seen the title translated either. EGGS (talk) 22:01, August 28, 2013 (UTC)

I can't say for sure, since I've never seen the original Japanese, but I do think the "Ultimate One (Primordial One)" thing is correct, but the other way around, at least for the skill; Primordial One (Ultimate One). The localization translates Primordial One as "Origin of All", but the first line of the description is "The Ultimate One", which was probably an attempt to retain the same effect as the Japanese name which would otherwise be lost in translation? But this is just me speculating, and someone with half of a clue is free to prove me wrong. (Is that line in the Japanese version?) As for Caster's NP, if what Lu says is any indication, it seems to be very old Japanese (I recall that Lu said it wasn't really translatable and that even a native Japanese speaker would have trouble with it) With the translation she gave, "The Eightfold Blessing of Amaterasu" is probably the closest we are going to get to a translation that isn't too long or awkwardly phrased (and as I said, I am opposed to just leaving it untranslated. I personal think that is rather sloppy and confusing for our readers) If someone else wants to give a shot at translating it, go ahead.--Otherarrow (talk) 22:51, August 28, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to bring this up again, but we've been sitting on this for a while. Is everyone OK with the proposed changes? Or at least, the adding of localized terms to pages? I have time, so I can start implementing them if you want.--Otherarrow (talk) 17:41, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

No issues on my end for either of them. EGGS (talk) 17:42, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

Alright, I did it. With the final agreement, the only page that actually needed moving was Caster's NP, the rest was just editing. I had some trouble with the Japanese template, but I managed to figure out most of it. Sorry for the trouble.--Otherarrow (talk) 19:59, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

The quality of these "official" translations ... >.>;

I won't bother to comment on them, besides to say that they're offensively wrong in some instances (Riding -> Dragoon), and outright incomprehensible in others (Chinese Martial Arts -> Liuhu Quan). Accepting Aksys translations as some sort of gold standard is just bizarre -- and even moreso is accepting as a "consensus" the okay of two editors.

Unrelatedly, Waifu Slayer = Food from Beast's Lair, so a lot of his stuff is in fact the secondary sources of materials used in this wiki.

-- Fallacies (talk) 22:51, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

It makes sense to catalog their existence even if they are incorrect. If someone only knows the localization, it helps to have them for context. EGGS (talk) 23:04, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, we already know how the translation isn't the best and that Waifood is a guy who does the translations. If you read this page, you'd noticed we already went over all that stuff and that we decided against using the Aksys names as a "gold standard", but the topic did give us a chance to double check the translations the wiki used and make improvements. On the subject of Liuhu Quan, my guess is that it isn't an attempt at an exact translation, but to be more specific about the style he was using (after all, "Chinese Martial Arts" is extremely vague)? I wouldn't know, as I don't know anything about Li Shuwen the real person. Anyway, yeah, we should catalog their existence, since the Aksys translation is going to be most folks primary exposure to Fate/Extra, so we can't just ignore it outright. --Otherarrow (talk) 00:28, September 23, 2013 (UTC)

The "ma" in Demonic Eye ("ma gan") is also the "ma" in Magic ("ma hou), is also the "ma" in Magecraft ("ma jutsu"). Demon is "aku ma." In Japanese, "ma" doesn't explicitly have anything to do with "demonic." It just means "mystical" or "supernatural." There's no reason why "mystic eye" is not a valid translation. Rather, the problem is that "demonic eye" makes it sound as if it has something to do with demons -- which it doesn't. Not directly. It's just a magical eye. -- Fallacies (talk) 23:11, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

"Ultimate One" is used because the same kanji is also used to describe the Types from NOTES. -- Fallacies (talk) 23:11, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

Protection of the Faith is not a blessing from a higher power, which is the standard meaning suggested by arbitrarily appending "divine" to it. Based on every known explanation of the ability, the protection is being granted by the "faith" of the servant. -- Fallacies (talk) 23:11, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't see your little commentary, as you placed it in the middle of another post. Please don't do that. It makes it hard to tell you added anything unless we use the "difference between edits" button, which not everyone uses for forums. For the record, I didn't actually implement much anything you commented on for one reason or the other. The "divine" part was just redundant translation it turns out. It turns out that the Japanese name of the skill is Ultimate One (Primordial One), so both are right, as detailed in the discussion below my list of changes further down the page (seriously read before you comment. Don't just skim.) Yes, the "ma" used in Demonic Eye, Magic, Makai (Demon/Magic World) etc indeed isn't inherently demonic, so I just noted the literal translation for completion's sake and called it a day. Sorry for this sudden post. I just noticed this and found it kinda odd that you commented on the things I decided against implementing.--Otherarrow (talk) 00:57, September 23, 2013 (UTC)

I didn't read the entire convo I will admit, but there is two things I would like to bring up that I don't know if they were addressed.

• Guan Yu is not a wrong translation of Chi You, it's a misinterpretation. Guan Yu was a figure from Chinese Legend who was deified as the War God, so in order to shorten it they likely went with "Warriors of Guan Yu" instead of "Warriors of the War God" in order to save space, as that was clearly a major factor in their translating. Still a mistake, but it's not on the translation, just on the implimentation, like the Maxwell's Demon, not wrong, just not right.

• I disagree with keeping the translation of Saver for the sake of being all inclusive. We do do literal translation here, but it's not like we don't correct things that are clearly wrong, like the fact that the romanisation of several Phantasms are short Rs. It may come out Saver for the Katakana or whatever, but that word doesn't exist, the English is Saviour and I think we should go with that.

But that's just my two cents. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 07:15, October 7, 2013 (UTC)

Renaming servants pages

Just like the topic says, I think this wikia should rename some of the pages as they seem to be confusing especially the routes naming. So I'm suggesting we should change some of the pages based on the Fate/EXTRA Material Encyclopedia.

These are a maybe, depends on if the user likes them:

• Playable Caster (Fate/Extra) = Caster (Fox)
• Playable Archer (Fate/Extra) = Archer (Fate/Extra)
• Archer (Fate/Extra) = Archer (Green)
• Caster (Fate/Extra) = Caster (Alice)

I think these definitely needs to be change:

• Berserker (Fate/Extra Rani route) = Berserker (White)
• Berserker (Fate/Extra Rin route) = Berserker (Lu)
• Lancer (Fate/Extra Rin route) = Lancer (Black)
• Lancer (Fate/Extra Rani route) = Lancer (Blue)

I'd think that the parentheses are not needed. Instead of Caster (Fox), it would be Fox Caster, for example. The other Servants who are noted by nickname, such as the F/A Servants are noted by their full titles, (for example, Mordred is at Saber of Red, not Saber (Red) or the like). I'd wonder if the additional Red Saber (though Nasu redubbed her Tange Saber in response to Mordred), Black Lancer, Red Lancer, etc would be a problem with the F/A Servants, of if the "X of Y" naming they use would be enough to keep them separate.--Otherarrow (talk) 22:23, October 6, 2013 (UTC)

This is a terrible idea. With the way it is now, you can easily identify the entry just at a glance. The recommended change is pointless and confusing. Is "Lancer (Black)" the Lancer from EXTRA? Or is it Lancer from Apocrypha? The EXTRA encyclopedia entries wrote those the way they are because it is under the context of EXTRA already. With the Wiki, there is no such context. 

The idea is cute, but it will make things unecessarily complicated. Waifu slayer (talk) 03:18, October 7, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think Caster in Fate/Extra should be refered to as Caster (Alice), she's only thought to be a second Alice initaly because Hakuno didn't know that one of the 2 Alice's were Caster until Aoko pointed it out (initally thinking that Jabberwock was their Beserker Servant), also she only take's Alice's form as Nursery Rhyme actully doesn't have a proper form for itself to begin with.

if we do have an identity in parentheses then it should be their real names like Caster (Nursery Rhyme), Beserker (Arcuied), Beserker (Lu Bu), if they happen to be the same class in Extra as what they are in another plotline like Vlad or Cú Chulainn then we would but (Fate/Extra) at the end, Archer-EMYIA doesn't count as technically he isn't EMYIA but the concept of EMYIA's existance as an "ally of justice" and without a name (maybe Faker EMYIA if he needed a name since his profiles does call him a Faker but that could just be because of his projection magic), but anyway, that's only if this idea was adopted, personally i find the current naming just fine cause if i want Saber-Nero i just type playerable and i see her, if i want Caster-Nursery Rhyme i'd just search for Caster and remember that Fate/Extra CCC isn't localized outside japan so i should not know of any other non-playable Caster

Memor-X (talk) 03:58, October 7, 2013 (UTC)

Doing it that way would make sense, but then you run the risk of spoiling things for people who don't want to be spoiled. 

Also, we are doing the name for Servants the same way for ALL works, not just EXTRA. Why are we making EXTRA the exception (not a good proposed exception either, makes no sense). 

I don't know why people on this Wiki are so facinated about gilding the lilies, instead of doing much needed constructive work. Waifu slayer (talk) 04:45, October 7, 2013 (UTC)

It seems majority of users seems happy with the current naming so I think it's best to cancel my suggesting.

While I do agree that renaming everything like that doesn't really work and breaks the usual format, I do think that the "Rin route/Rani route" tags need to be changed. Maybe I am just dumb (which I am), but I find it confusing that Rani's Servant is tagged with Rin's name and vice versa. I have no idea what a working and not dumb alternative would be though, so this is probably a useless post, sorry.--Otherarrow (talk) 01:33, October 8, 2013 (UTC)

I actually like the current way we have the Servant listings, but Otherarrow does have a valid point regarding the Fate/Extra Lancers and Berserkers. If we did go through a rename, I think, in order to not conflict with the current format for the non-Extra Servants, we could name the articles like Lancer (Fate/Extra - Rin Tohsaka) and Berserker (Fate/Extra - Rani VIII), which marks each Servant's owner. Obviously, Arcueid Berserker and Extra Vlad Lancer would go through this rename as well. This is only if we actually do a rename for them, of course. In terms of the playable Servants, I still think we should keep them as they are. Arrancar109 (Talk) 19:52, October 8, 2013 (UTC)