Sefar vs Zeus
Quotes
So in game it is stated that Zeus destroyed/crushed Sefar.
This is Hephaestus saying it.
"プロメテウス＝ヘファイストス: だが⸻ゼウスは別格！を操る主神、全能の最高存在！ティターンを倒し、旗艦の証にして神話体系を統べる神器クロノス＝クラウンを奪い、そして……『白き滅び』さえも打ち砕いた。"
"ゼウスが合体の核として立ったからこそ、我ら十二の神が、『白き滅び』を打倒できたのだよ。"
"そうとも。少なくともこの異聞帯に於いて、あれは星の外敵さえ打ち砕く力を一度は見せた。"
Zeus saying it.
ゼウス: マキアと名付けられた大戦を経て、我は、我らは、白き滅びたるさえも打ち砕いた。
Aphrodite saying it. "ゼウスの力を貴様は知るまい!一万と四千年の昔を! まさしく、我らが異聞帯の始まりーーー 彼方より来たりて星を殺さんとした外敵さえ完膚無きまでに打ち砕いてみせた、大雷雲の力を!"
But in the famitsu interview Nasu phrased it as repelling/chasing Sefar away after almost reaching a draw.
"ほぼ相打ち状態になってセファールを追い返したの"
Full Famitsu: ――ゲーム中でも少し描かれましたが、アトランティス文明が滅びた理由についてもう少し詳しく教えていただけますか。 奈須もちろんTYPE-MOON世界でのお話ですよね？
TYPE-MOON世界においては、1万4千年前にセファールがやってきて、ボコボコにされたからです。ほかの神話体系の連中は、セファールがやってきたときに「空からヤバいのが降ってきたぞ。どうする？」と慌てて対策をねっていたのですが、アトランティスは自分たちもほかの宇宙からやってきたので、舐めていたんです（笑）。そうしたら、セファールは本当に対異星文明特化型の兵器だったので、あっさりやられちゃったんです。一方、ゼウスが「これはヤバい！」といち早く気づいて、ほかの十一機神が合体したくないのを「今ここで合体しないでどうする」と無理やり合体して、ほぼ相打ち状態になってセファールを追い返したのが、異聞帯になった世界です。十二機神が本気にならなかったほうが、普通の型月伝奇世界なんです。それでアトランティスが滅んで、生き残りの残骸たちがエーゲ海まで流れ着いて、後のギリシャ文明の下地になったという。無理やりだけど、そういう伝奇感になっています。(source)
Translation by INKD:
- Q: Can you explain a bit more about how the Atlantis Civilization ended?
- Nasu: Well that is the Type Moon World story right? In the Type Moon World, 14000 Years ago, Sefar came in and went around breaking down everything. Gods from other sect of divinity when Sefar arrived reacted it "Oh no a threat beyond the sky came down, what do we do?" and panic-ed and started making plans. While Atlantis because they were from space too, they were looking down at them a bit (laugh). They were acting very high and mighty, until they were easily defeated because of Sefar being an Anti-Foreign Civilization Specialty Weapon. Meanwhile, in the Greece Lostbelt, Zeus alone recognized "This is Dangerous" and immediately recognized, and forced the other 12 gods who didn't wanted to fuse, and forced them all with "If we don't fuse now, what do you think is gonna happen", fought Sefar to a draw and chased it away. But in a normal Type Moon Senki World, the 12 Machine Gods didn't become serious and as a result Atlantis Civilization ended. And surviving remnant flowed to the Aegean Sea, which later became the foundation of the Greek Civilization, type of almost forceful story happened.
Translation by Fallacies:
- "ほぼ相打ち状態" = "a state of approximate draw"
- "セファールを追い返したのが、" = "sefar was chased off (as a result)"
Discussion
I'm personally more inclined to believe the story as "chasing away/repelling" is a bit vague and contradicts the story itself. Plus Extella mats states that Sefar is supposed to self-destruct when her mission is finished. It's always a one way trip for her, either she is destroyed by the entities on the planet she invades or she self-annihilates after destroying everything on the planet. --Crimson Moon1 (talk) 22:51, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
- The translators I've been talking to translated famitsu as "fought sefar to a draw and chased it away." A fragment of the sentence is translataed by google as "almost a draw." The context of the entire sentence can change the meaning of those words. This is nothing new in Japanese. Could you give us the translation of the complete sentence? At least it is clear it doesn't say "completely vanquished sefar." lolGuessWhoYoutube (talk) 05:22, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- It's translated by more than just google as "almost", pretty much every translation resource does, and the part was already singled out. Besides, the concept of drawing and yet Sefar being driven away too is illogical. With whichever narrative we go in, and based on the evidence, Zeus' victory is clear, so it is not a draw as you're trying to edit it to. Hell, you even mentioned it as "almost a draw" yourself before, lol. And bringing up the "completely vanquished" is irrelevant since it's already some time since I stopped editing that in. Demonicjester01 (talk) 06:02, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- You are not the best one to talk cause you didn't do any research on the topic. You simply arrived, saw something you didn't agree with, and automatically changed it with no basis at all. Changing the quote so that it says "completely vanquished" proves my point. You had no idea what the interview said, yet you felt entitled to change it. Take the entire paragraph and paste it in google translate. It's broken English at best. If you just translate the sentence on its own, google says it means "It was almost a trade-off and I turned back Cefal". Yet if you translate the entire pargraph, it chages to "It is the world that has become a strange zone that has driven back Cefal." Just adding 2 more kanji can completely change the meaning of a sentence in Japanese, and it also changes Google's translation severely. Google translate is by no means an accurate source lol. Since all the translators I've talked to are more accurate than google translate, I want to know if the "almost a draw" is accurate or not, while taking the entire sentence into account.GuessWhoYoutube (talk) 13:11, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- Honestly this whole thing is dumb because User:Demonicjester01 is getting worked up over a technicality. Like why do you care so much that the outcome is described as "almost fought to a draw" and "Chased away". Like it's not majorly misleading even if it is. Thanks to all the information we know, Zeus fought Sefar but never personally destroyed her. The outcome ended with both sides surviving until Sefar was destroyed later by Excalibur. This can be described as a "draw" since neither side truly accomplished their goal of destroying the other, and it can also be described as "Chased Away", since Sefar stopped fighting and just walked away. You say describing it as a draw is "completely false information" when at best it's poor phrasing or wording. Completely false information is saying something something like Amaterasu chased away Sefar rather than Zeus.Orionpaxg1 (talk) 15:50, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- Saw something I "didn't agree with"? That's just dishonesty. From the beginning I talked about how I edited it because it contradicted all the information given in the actual game, which is the case. And when it comes to Orionpaxg1, how am I caring "so much" about it being described as "almost fought to a draw" and "Chased away" when those are exactly the edits I've most recently done? All I'm discussing right now is that GuessWhoYoutube wants to falsely describe it as a straight up "draw", and this was already explained if you read the previous posts. Also this whole "they both survived until Sefar was destroyed by Excalibur" is not rooted in any information we have. Excalibur isn't ever mentioned in the interview, which is the only resource present that contradicts Zeus destroying Sefar outright, and yet still has it as a Zeus victory even if it was an extremely close battle until what the game stated. Changing a close victory (which is what "almost a draw" is) into a draw (no victory is present in a draw) is completely false information. Demonicjester01 (talk) 17:34, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- Nasu can contradict the story if he wants. Whether his word should be taken as absolute truth or not, is another topic, but what he said, and what the translator wrote down are facts. Nasu NEVER said "completely vanquished" and the translator didn't say "almost." No one gives you the right to chage the quote itself. Explaining that the interview differs from the game is another topic, but chainging one of the sources for no reason is dishonest. Me keeping the translation without modifying it isn't. I finally managed to get Fallacies to translate it too, and she said that it means "a state of approximate draw." So during their fight, it was pretty much a 50-50.GuessWhoYoutube (talk) 20:28, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- Confirmed with two Japanese speakers and also Japanese dictionary and the "ほぼ" hiragana means anything in the range of "almost", "roughly" and "approximately". Whichever we go with already makes it not a "50-50", especially when Sefar was driven away while Zeus was not. One remained in position, achieving their purpose while the other was forced to retreat, failing. Not to count the fact that Sefar's remains (Gigas) in a similar manner as when it was destroyed by Excalibur were present, while Zeus' state after the battle doesn't resemble what happened to him in PHH at all. It doesn't matter if it was really close, the result is there and it's not a straight up "draw" as you tried to return it to. Your claims of "dishonesty" also have no value when you're still bringing up the "vanquished" mention even though I already stopped pushing for it near the beginning of this whole argument, and it has nothing to do with what I'm pushing against now. It's just an empty attempt at character assassination, like the whole thing about me changing something because I "didn't agree" or whatever. Demonicjester01 (talk) 22:04, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- I never pushed that it was a "draw." I said that the translator said it, and that unless you offer a better translation explaining why it's more accurate, it's gonna stay that way. You can't change the quote presented on a whim without doing any research about the topic first. Now that Crimson and me have, by asking different translators and cross-referencing our findings, it seems the "a state of approximate draw" is more accurate than what had been originally presented. This is what you should have done from the getgo, and not start changing stuff without knowing what you were talking about.GuessWhoYoutube (talk) 22:49, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- Confirmed with two Japanese speakers and also Japanese dictionary and the "ほぼ" hiragana means anything in the range of "almost", "roughly" and "approximately". Whichever we go with already makes it not a "50-50", especially when Sefar was driven away while Zeus was not. One remained in position, achieving their purpose while the other was forced to retreat, failing. Not to count the fact that Sefar's remains (Gigas) in a similar manner as when it was destroyed by Excalibur were present, while Zeus' state after the battle doesn't resemble what happened to him in PHH at all. It doesn't matter if it was really close, the result is there and it's not a straight up "draw" as you tried to return it to. Your claims of "dishonesty" also have no value when you're still bringing up the "vanquished" mention even though I already stopped pushing for it near the beginning of this whole argument, and it has nothing to do with what I'm pushing against now. It's just an empty attempt at character assassination, like the whole thing about me changing something because I "didn't agree" or whatever. Demonicjester01 (talk) 22:04, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- Nasu can contradict the story if he wants. Whether his word should be taken as absolute truth or not, is another topic, but what he said, and what the translator wrote down are facts. Nasu NEVER said "completely vanquished" and the translator didn't say "almost." No one gives you the right to chage the quote itself. Explaining that the interview differs from the game is another topic, but chainging one of the sources for no reason is dishonest. Me keeping the translation without modifying it isn't. I finally managed to get Fallacies to translate it too, and she said that it means "a state of approximate draw." So during their fight, it was pretty much a 50-50.GuessWhoYoutube (talk) 20:28, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- Saw something I "didn't agree with"? That's just dishonesty. From the beginning I talked about how I edited it because it contradicted all the information given in the actual game, which is the case. And when it comes to Orionpaxg1, how am I caring "so much" about it being described as "almost fought to a draw" and "Chased away" when those are exactly the edits I've most recently done? All I'm discussing right now is that GuessWhoYoutube wants to falsely describe it as a straight up "draw", and this was already explained if you read the previous posts. Also this whole "they both survived until Sefar was destroyed by Excalibur" is not rooted in any information we have. Excalibur isn't ever mentioned in the interview, which is the only resource present that contradicts Zeus destroying Sefar outright, and yet still has it as a Zeus victory even if it was an extremely close battle until what the game stated. Changing a close victory (which is what "almost a draw" is) into a draw (no victory is present in a draw) is completely false information. Demonicjester01 (talk) 17:34, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- Honestly this whole thing is dumb because User:Demonicjester01 is getting worked up over a technicality. Like why do you care so much that the outcome is described as "almost fought to a draw" and "Chased away". Like it's not majorly misleading even if it is. Thanks to all the information we know, Zeus fought Sefar but never personally destroyed her. The outcome ended with both sides surviving until Sefar was destroyed later by Excalibur. This can be described as a "draw" since neither side truly accomplished their goal of destroying the other, and it can also be described as "Chased Away", since Sefar stopped fighting and just walked away. You say describing it as a draw is "completely false information" when at best it's poor phrasing or wording. Completely false information is saying something something like Amaterasu chased away Sefar rather than Zeus.Orionpaxg1 (talk) 15:50, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- You are not the best one to talk cause you didn't do any research on the topic. You simply arrived, saw something you didn't agree with, and automatically changed it with no basis at all. Changing the quote so that it says "completely vanquished" proves my point. You had no idea what the interview said, yet you felt entitled to change it. Take the entire paragraph and paste it in google translate. It's broken English at best. If you just translate the sentence on its own, google says it means "It was almost a trade-off and I turned back Cefal". Yet if you translate the entire pargraph, it chages to "It is the world that has become a strange zone that has driven back Cefal." Just adding 2 more kanji can completely change the meaning of a sentence in Japanese, and it also changes Google's translation severely. Google translate is by no means an accurate source lol. Since all the translators I've talked to are more accurate than google translate, I want to know if the "almost a draw" is accurate or not, while taking the entire sentence into account.GuessWhoYoutube (talk) 13:11, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
- It's translated by more than just google as "almost", pretty much every translation resource does, and the part was already singled out. Besides, the concept of drawing and yet Sefar being driven away too is illogical. With whichever narrative we go in, and based on the evidence, Zeus' victory is clear, so it is not a draw as you're trying to edit it to. Hell, you even mentioned it as "almost a draw" yourself before, lol. And bringing up the "completely vanquished" is irrelevant since it's already some time since I stopped editing that in. Demonicjester01 (talk) 06:02, 17 September 2021 (UTC)