Talk: Mystic Eyes of Death Perception

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I rewrote the article. Since this seems to be kinda sensitive article, I added ridiculous amount of references. If it's too much, feel free to remove them... Azaghal 16:51, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the references are great. You really improved the article on what I did. -- Shintis 17:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

About the line "Cutting the line “breaks” the object along that line and damage inflicted this way can not be healed or repaired in any way". Then what about Arcueid's revival after being cut to 17 pieces? ScorchingFalcon 00:53, 5 Dec 2007

She said in the game that she was completely unable to heal her body and spent the entire night feeling the pain caused by the cuts. Since she is a natural spirit, she was able to build a completely new body, but used up most of her remaining power in the process. That's the reason she required Shiki's help in fighting Nero and Roa, and the reason she starts inverting in some routes (lacking the power to control her bloodlust). Azaghal 18:06, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
She used Marble Phantasm. She recreated a new body for herself, she didn't repair the one that was cut up. Byakko 19:53, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
"the death is permanent, cannot be reversed, ect" is slightly confusing given that Arc was able to "come back to life"...rewording may be needed? also the "erases" existance may need to be reworded as it implies it erases the info from akasha... 58.107.9.235 16:57, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
"given that Arc was able to come back to life" except Arc was never dot-stabbed in that sequence... She got her lines cut. She still existed, and she was able to recreate a new body to replace the one that was cut. Agree on the erasing part. --Byakko 18:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Rather than rewording, we could just add a sentence at the end of the paragraph. Something like "...and can't be reversed or bypassed, even by reincarnation, as the souls of living beings killed this way are sent to Akasha immediately." Or something similar...Azaghal 21:30, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Shiki Tohno's eyes may have started out less advanced than Ryougi Shiki's, but according to a story in Blue Book Plus Period (about the vampiric forest), Tohno's eyes have gotten so advanced that not even the mystic eyes killer is enough to stop them (I also seem to recall that he was even able to see lines and dots on his glasses, despite being indestructible). It's is also presumable that he has the ability to destroy concepts, as he was able to defeat a high-class magus without actually harming her. He already shows some of this skill within Tsukihime, when destroying the "poison" that is Satsuki's blood, and destroying Akiha's origami. 68.181.188.145 19:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

"(I also seem to recall that he was even able to see lines and dots on his glasses, despite being indestructible)" No. He was able to see lines THROUGH the glasses. "It's is also presumable that he has the ability to destroy concepts" No, there's no relevant hint about that.
Nothing is said on Satsujinki/DEATH (what he is known as in that Talk story and in the Prelude, the short stories in the Plus Period and the Character Material) because nothing is known about him in these stories. Also when on Earth did poison become a concept ? And Akiha's Origami is a psychic ability, not a concept.
This place is not to throw in baseless/non proven info/assumptions/miscomprehensions. --Byakko 20:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

There’s a couple of major points missing from the article, namely the “everything dies” rule, the problem of seeing the death of beings of higher order, (Namely why Shiki can see Arcueid’s lines during the day and not under the full moon) and… maybe some way to clarify the whole deal with the predestined time of death and how Akasha keeps all the different probabilities of how/when that will happen. In general, clarify things everyone seems to get wrong.

Problem is that I don’t have the time to go through the game and side-materials again to hunt down all the references, so I wouldn’t be able to source everything I write… so this is basically me bringing this up and hoping someone with more time will take care of it. So yeah. --Ephyon 21:39, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Eh, probably not good to say it, given the sensitive matter of this issue, but Chapter 10 of Paradox Spiral has an... interesting tidbit during the first Ryougi vs Araya match. Just note that this is regular Ryougi, not "" Ryougi.

Although she knows that the man in front of her is an 'enemy', and that he wishes to kill both her and Enjoh, she can't make herself rush in as usual.

--- This bastard, I can't see him... !

Hiding her inner surprise, Shiki coldly looked the man over.

The death she could see on people if she merely wished to, this man doesn't have any.

[skip]

Without exception everyone she had seen until now had possessed those 'lines of death'.

But, upon this man, those lines were too faint.

Strongly, harder than she had ever done before, Shiki glares at the man. Her brain may have overheated, because she observed the opponent till a portion of her consciousness went white, only then could she see it.

Make of it what you will, but you can read the whole scene here.

I apologize if I'm just wasting space.

Color

Is it perhaps notable that when active, the Eyes apparently glow blue? If it were just in the KnK movies, I wouldn't notice it (since I haven't read the novels and don't know how much of it was adapted), but in Kohaku's route, Akiha mentions that Shiki's eyes are "blue" when he activates them and AFAIK his eyes are usually gray... --Koveras Alvane 22:16, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's notable and even mentioned in articles for both Tohno Shiki (infobox) and Noble Colors, but it's definitely missing from here. I'll add it now. Also, Seo Akira mentions Shiki's eyes glowing blue when he activated them in Plus+Disc. --Azaghal 00:06, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
That's unrelated. Tsukihime Shiki's eye glow blue because they "evolved" from his jougan, which were blue. If you check the thing about colors, blue is one of the anti-demon colors, along with silver (another color Shiki's eye can be seen as in Melty Blood), while red and gold are demonic colors. Besides, Ryougi's eyes do not glow blue in the movies, they glow multi-color. --Byakko 15:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I know Ryougi has disco eyes, but blue still seems to be dominant color even in her case. Anyways, there are pictures in the article that show them activated, so it could simply be added that, while they are classified blue in both cases, it's not a rule that MEoDP glow blue (not that there should be any other instance of them anyway). --Azaghal 16:32, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Okay, I'm currently reading Mirai Fukuin, and it says her eyes "glow with a blue light". Mah. --Byakko 20:32, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
In the fifth movie, at one point in the final battle her eyes stopped being blue, and then they flashed back to blue when she attacked. Is this significant? --68.160.204.144 14:38, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Probably just an artistic choice to make the scene more "cool" (like how they show her eyes suddenly glowing when she meets Fujino for the first time in the third movie). There was really no other reason for her to stop using the Eyes in the middle of the fight... --Azaghal 17:19, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
So it can't be used as evidence of her being able to turn off the eyes? --Raijinili 17:50, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Azaghal

The 3rd personality description cannot be used as is, because there is not information to back up any of the information stated. --Unsigned comment by User:24.191.185.86

Most information in that paragraph comes from the KnK novels, specifically 5th and 7th chapter and the epilogue. Those haven't been translated, so I can't attest for it's accuracy, but it should be generally correct.
It's also true that that paragraph is the least sourced part of the article (due to lack of novel translation, obviously).
You shouldn't delete the entire paragraph again, but feel free to edit the info you think is incorrect, or add a remark about it's vagueness. --Azaghal 15:03, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
It is more troublesome to edit because none of her supposed feats in her third personality with the eyes can be found in the text. There is no vagueness because it is not addressed in any matter either other than perhaps her claim that she can smother reality over with a new one, but is that from her eyes or the nature of her body? Simply removing the edited parts will not be enough.

Couple questions. One, Mystic Eyes glow in a general approximation of the color they rank, so MEoDP should be ranked Blue or Indigo, right? Even Ryougi's eyes are mostly blue, with what could be considered Violet in the center maybe suggesting a higher rank. It's even listed here as Blue, so why was it removed from the Noble Colors page? Second, in Kagetsu Tohya, Crimson Moon uses something like the MEoDP, but with a White/Light Gold color. In practice, it resembles Balor's Mystic Eyes. Should that be included here, or is there not enough info? --Twelveseal 05:25, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Because other than Jewel, Gold, and Rainbow, there hasn't been an official Noble Color name that has been given.
Also check up what I said last in the above discussion : "Okay, I'm currently reading Mirai Fukuin, and it says her eyes "glow with a blue light"" No indigo. The purple thing in the movies is, for all intent and purpose, nothing more than eye candy as far as we know. --Byakko 12:52, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

i'm just wondering, just in case Servant Saber used AVALON against Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, what will win? the so-called "The Ultimate Protection That Nothing Can Penetrate"(as Gilgamesh implied to the True Noble Phastasm of the King of Knights), or the eyes that can make any defense useless? will Saber be still affected by the Mystic Eyes or not?

Saber is removed from the current location, so there should be nothing to see. It's a matter of concept. However, there may be a possibility to see the "lines" of the barrier itself, at best. --Byakko 18:24, April 10, 2010 (UTC)
    172.5.183.219 18:39, September 3, 2014 (UTC)In the manga Shiki Tohno cut through magic itself, and I think that would be more like the magic powering the spell, not the actual equation of the spell, so he would cut through the magic powering the barrier destroying it? 172.5.183.219 18:39, September 3, 2014 (UTC)Leecher(sorry if really off base or shouldn't be here)

LOL just replying this because I'm bored. Avalon is the "ultimate defense that protects King Arthur", so no matter what anyone does they won't be able to hurt her, but Shiki may be able to kill the barrier and then attack her. what sooper awesome power is the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception that can kill what even the 5 magics can't lol Sandubadear (talk) 13:29, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

MEoDP's Concept?

I was pretty sure there was an interview where Nasu explained somewhere in an interview that MEoDP is based on Gaia's concept of death? This would explain why in Melty Blood Actress Again when you beat R. Shiki's arcade mode, she confronts Crimson Moon commenting that she not only "can't see her [Crimson Moon] death...she doesn't have a death". Point is the article should be a little more specific. For example, when it states that R. Shiki "can kill anything that exists" I was pretty sure it was that her MEoDP could "kill" anything that exists that held Gaia's concept of death. Thus R. Shiki was able to kill all the aforementioned things because they all held Gaia's concept of death. Crimson Moon didn't hold Gaia's concept of death therefore Crimson Moon didn't have any lines.

173.49.240.204 23:03, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

  • Well, sure, the article could explain that, but connecting the dots in the Nasuverse is somewhat pointless, since Nasu is often inconsistent with his own statements. It's a question if we can even talk about Ryougi affecting Crimson Moon when it isn't even clear whether all of the same elements exist in the KnK universe; Dead Apostles don't seem to exist in KnK, so who knows if all other Tsukihime/FSN/Notes/ect stuff does too. Additionally, while Ryougi might not be able to see it in the assumption her verse does exist with Crimson Moon, who knows what Akasha would perceive. -Zekk_Skywalk 00:03, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
  • Hm, okay. I'll agree Nasu has issues maintaining consistency in his statements. I won't press the issue with R. Shiki and Crimson Moon. However could you help me understand the second concept? Like what MEoDP specifically does in the Nasuverse. I'm still confused about MEoDP's definite concept. For example, you cut a line or stab a point, it "kills" and "erases" the object. I remember somewhere in Tsukihime, Arcueid states that every object holds death inside them. MEoDP's allows you to see that death. This death is Gaia's concept of death right? As for the third personality R. Shiki (aka personality of Akasha) I agree we have no idea what it perceives. However, I don't think it uses the MEoDP. Its the Root of Akasha after all, it could easily revamp the concept of everything in the Universe. Oh right, speaking of which, that's another thing I thought should be fixed. I think its overassumtive to think that the third personality uses MEoDP. After all, it's connected to the Root of Akasha thus a godly entity. Reference 16 mentions only the second personality's MEoDP. The third personality goes on about how it can delve deeper than the second personality. That doesn't necessarily mean the third personality is using its eyes. Then again, I'm basing this on the english translation which is far from perfect. I think the "Shiki (Void)" entry should be removed from the "Levels of Perception" I'm sorry for showing up out of nowhere and being brazen about all this. I guess it's because I'm a bit...anal? No pun intended. Oh lastly, as for why I think KnK and Tsukihime seem to be connected, the Aozaki sisters.173.49.245.67 14:20, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
  • The point of the MEoDP is that the perception comes from the Root, so what Akasha sees is more along the lines of what a person with the eyes sees plus more. Yes, it doesn't seem to use the eyes, but that's because it already perceives in that dimension or concept and doesn't need some special ability. And yes, the Aozaki sisters suggest a connection between Tsukihime and KnK, but it doesn't mean they're in the same universe. Part of the problem comparing the two is that they can easily exist in separate universes since the Nasuverse is a multiverse, and that KnK doesn't seem to have Dead Apostles, Arc, or any number of other things from Tsukihime, so again, there's no telling whether things like Crimson Moon exist there. Ryougi's appearance in other media could be explained by her traveling to other parts of the multiverse, not her staying in her own necessarily, as is implied in Fate/Extra, and the thought of the rules of her powers after jumping universes makes my brain bleed. -Zekk_Skywalk 05:14, June 7, 2011 (UTC)
  • I think my brain just died several times over. So basically, I was right about Shiki (void)? Since MEoDP is something that only percieves death you can't really say that the third personality has MEoDP. Right? It's something beyond that, according to you. So can I delete that part? =) Okay, thanks for clearing up the multiverse part (Nasu is killing me), I understand that. Aozaki Aoko, being a sorceress, seems more then capable of jumping across the multiverse- maybe her sister too. So your explanation for the different universes makes sense. Still, I would really appreciate it if you could help me understand what MEoDP is supposed to do. You see death in the forms of lines and points. What does that mean? What if an object had no death? What is the form of this death? I'll repeat a statement I've heard before, I simply want to validify it: the objects that reside from beings of the world (Gaia) contain its [Gaia's] version of death those are what the lines and points MEoDP percieve, represent. That would make sense considering (I don't know if this is appropriate since they are from different multiverses, I'm under the assumption it's similar considering Crimson Moon existed in Tsukihime and thus other Ultimate Ones would also exist) Gun God from Notes uses the Black Barrel that instills the concept of death within a being. All that aside. What specifically is the death MEoDP seeing? Lines and Points are kind of vague for me, Death is even vaguer. I simply want to know about what is the death MEoDP sees. Skywalk, thanks a ton for putting up with my barrage of questions it really helps out alot. It's just Nasu made a really cool universe that makes me want to go Nanaya (See what I did there?) I'll sign up with a real username next entry considering my dynamic IP might confuse some people.71.185.39.227 04:43, June 8, 2011 (UTC)
    • What specifically is the death MEoDP seeing? Lines and Points are kind of vague for me, Death is even vaguer. I simply want to know about what is the death MEoDP sees. When it comes to the lines, it is inferred that the lines are by which all things degrade over time, like entropy. MEoDP sees existence without the boundaries of time and sees the eventual dissipation or destruction of a physical item or concept. The KnK films visually illustrate this with Shiki perceiving people falling apart at the lines she perceives, like they were rotting corpses instead of living beings. Points/dots on the other hand are more like reaching the soul of the creature, because it is implied that those dots are reaching the very connection the object has to existence--for physical things, its easy to just destroy their physical body, but for a life, it is implied to reach into the Root of their existence and destroy it. Souls are reincarnated in Nasuverse, but dot piercing would keep it from doing so. The point issue though is kind of nixed on Ryougi, who isn't cited as seeing any...her Mystic Eyes are generally considered stronger than Tohno/Nanaya's anyway. -Zekk_Skywalk 04:49, June 9, 2011 (UTC)
  • Ah okay, I suppose that's another reason why possible universe crossovers are confusing... Anyways. when you say "dissipation and destruction" you're referring to the soul returning to a mass of information, which then goes back to the Root? And when R. Shiki traces a line it sends the physical item or concept to its "state of death"? Also, the article here says that Tohno Shiki's eyes are of a different level than his alternate persona, Nanaya. Are they really the same or are they different? Farmy 20:58, June 9, 2011 (UTC)
    • Well, if it has a soul, yes. If Ryougi cuts physical objects, like a door, or concepts, like "distance," they obviously don't go anywhere, they just degrade right then and there. People, like Shirazumi, upon being cut, have their souls return to the Root to be reincarnated, though the Akasha personality in Ryougi suggests it could completely terminate the soul if it was the one doing the cutting. And as for Tohno/Nanaya's Eyes, I'm not sure what you're referring to. The only difference in levels is comparing Tohno/Nanaya Shiki to his Melty Blood persona Satsujinki, the former where the glasses still work and the latter when they no longer do. If you're talking about Tohno SHIKI, that's a completely separate character. -Zekk_Skywalk 10:18, June 11, 2011 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I was referring to Tohno/Nanaya Shiki. Well, I was referring to the article having both Tohno Shiki and Nanaya Shiki listed as different entries I was ambiguous as to which Tohno Shiki they were referring to and assumed since Tohno Shiki wasn't capitalized that it was Nanaya Shiki. That seems to have been fixed though. Wait, the soul getting terminated would mean the reincarnation cycle stops? Does that mean the soul gets erased or does it mean the soul stops reincarnation and just stays in Akasha as "raw material"? Another thing I'd like to ask is during the Tsukihime Epilogue "Eclipse" Aoko states that N. Shiki doesn't have very long to live. Furthermore, it seems Shiki doesn't have his glasses and has to use bandages like Satsujinki to seal his eyes (Tsukihime manga chapter 74, which is also the Eclipse scene). Is this the result of his eyes becoming so powerful it could fry his brain or kill him? I suppose this could also suggest that under the pressure of a seal the eyes get stronger? Another question, this is a sidebar question. How far is the Melty Blood Act 2 Manga? Haven't found a site that translates it past the part where Giant Akiha sends Arcueid flying. - Farmy 18:18, June 11, 2011 (UTC)
    • Yes, if the soul is terminated, the reincarnation cycle stops; Tohno does so to Roa by piercing his "point" and completely destroying Roa's existence. Ryougi never does, though again, Akasha implies it has the power. And the soul gets erased, period. As for the Epilogue of Tsukihime, yes, Tohno's Eyes are killing him. The seal didn't make them stronger, though; use of the Eyes has started to kill him because human minds are not meant to perceive death in that way and his body can't take the strain. If Tohno never took the glasses off from when Aoko initially gave them to him, he might have lived a much longer life. The events of the game, no matter how you slice it, have degraded his lifespan. For Melty Blood Act 2, I have no idea, since I don't particularly pay attention to all the various Tsukihime spinoffs. -Zekk_Skywalk 19:57, June 11, 2011 (UTC)

How does a user of MEoDP tell the difference between the lines and points of the clothes the person is wearing and the lines and points of the person him/herself?

108.69.130.39 01:42, December 18, 2011 (UTC)Sebastian

Denial of nothingness

I was wondering since one of the true magic's is denial of nothingness, or what exists exists and that there is no such thing as nothing, would it be able to counter act the effect of the mystic eyes of death perception being used against someone. Because in the true magic's page it says that "The true existence of everything is permanent, ungenerated, indestructible, and unchanging" so wouldn't the effects of the eyes being used count as changing the existence of the soul\body and therefore be against the denial of nothingness. What I mean by used I mean is one of the lines cut or dots hit.217.43.66.48 18:36, February 5, 2014 (UTC)Guest

The answer is "maybe". The First won't directly nullify MEoDP, but it is entirely possible for it to replace what was destroyed by MEoDP (assuming the Magician has the skill). In fact, it was stated in Hollow Ataraxia that the First is a method to "raise the dead". Again, it is a "functional counter". MEoDP will still go through and kill the target, but the First may generate a replacement. Waifu slayer (talk) 04:27, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

A Soul's Destiny

What entirely happens to a 'Soul' after being reached its Point of Death? Will she return to the Root, never to return? Or will she be utterly extinct from existence forever and ever?