Can this article be locked or something ? Some (unregistered) moron keeps inverting the names of which sword is Kanshou and which is Bakuya without ever even giving any source. --Byakko 01:50, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
- I'll put on a temporary lock (preventing unregistered users from editing), but it seem the person in question already gave up... --Azaghal 22:50, January 16, 2010 (UTC)
Kanshou is the white, Bakuya is the black...
If you really understand Yin and Yang, then you should at least tell wether who is the male and who is the female. Yin represents light, good and masculine aspect, thus it is the color white, while Yang is the black one representing dark, bad and feminine aspect. Kanshou(Gian Jang) should be the white sword and Bakuya(Mo Ye) is the black sword.
- First, no, not according to fate/Side Material. http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/3636/083kb.png Whatever you say, you'll have to blame Nasu for being an ignorant fool, because I'm quoting the Fate:Side Material here. The black sword is the Yang, Kanshou, and the white sword is the Yin, Bakuya.
- Second, no and no, Yang 陽 is the positive, the warm side, the sun (as in Taiyou, the sun, literally the "great yang"), and Yin 陰 is negative, the shade. I have no idea where you picked up your colors and your yin-yang, here it's you I blame for being an ignorant fool - although Nasu did switch the colors around, yang should be the light and yin should be the dark ; but the names are correct. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang "Yin is female and yang is male." Get your shit straight.
- Next time, take the hint : quote an official source, and look when I'm quoting a source. It's not like I didn't go and add a footnote giving the literal translation of the above picture, no, you still don't care aboout what the author wrote. It's as if nobody wants to read the actual material, you just put whatever you want and you don't give a crap about backing it up or looking at what the author said. --Byakko 13:46, January 25, 2010 (UTC)
- GUEST ENTRY:
- In Sparks Liner High the cg suggests that Kanshou is the white sword and that Bakuya is the black. Dunno how relevant that is, but thought it worthy of noting.
Two translations
At the moment, there are two translations for the anti-demon chant in the article. They look more or less the same, with the first one being more poetic (iirc this one was pulled from Wikipedia), and second one more literal (as far as I can tell). Now, I don't favor either, but having two is redundant, and one should be removed. Any comments?
I also created the chant entry in Chants & Incantations article. I used the first translation on the argument it was here longer, but that can be changed. It'd be nice if someone can write romaji for it over there tho. --Azaghal 23:57, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
- To be specific, there are three versions of the text. There's the Chinese kanjis written on the blade (the ones currently on this page), then Shirou reads it out loud in Japanese. But as usual with Nasu, when Shirou does so, there's the "main" Japanese text along with furiganas - like when "sword of promised victory" has "Excalibur" written on top. He did the same with that text, and the two versions are actually a bit different - for example, the first line is "鶴翼（しんぎ）、欠落ヲ不ラズ（むけつにしてばんじゃく）" with the text here in parenthesis being what is usually translated (here "skills, flawless and firm"), and the text not in parenthesis being an "extension" of the Chinese kanjis - it takes the Chinese kanjis and fills the "gaps" with katakanas (the Japanese syllabary often used for foreign words and such), with that line here actually reading "crane wings, no opening". In the last line, the subject of the sentence is written as "両雄（われら）" - here the kanji version reads "two great men" (or "two rivals") but the version in parenthesis reads "we". This pretty much changes the meaning of the whole text. I wanted to underline that difference when I tried to retranslate it (the first version here).
- But regardless, the two translations currently present on this page are just a different translation of the same version. I don't know who did the second translation.
- It's been a while since I put up the first translation (which was my attempt at retranslating it, ending up as a touch-up of Arai's first translation of it), and it probably needs fixing up...
- For the record, here's the full text as Shirou reads it out loud :
- 「―――鶴翼（しんぎ）、欠落ヲ不ラズ（むけつにしてばんじゃく）」
- 「―――心技（ちから）、泰山ニ至リ（やまをぬき）」
- 「―――心技（つるぎ）、黄河ヲ渡ル（みずをわかつ）」
- ―――唯名（せいめい）、別天ニ納メ（りきゅうにとどき）。
- ―――両雄（われら）、共ニ命ヲ別ツ（ともにてんをいだかず）……！
- To note, the last two lines have such a different meaning between the two versions (parenthesis and not parenthesis) that both translations here actually ended up splitting it in three lines (there are five lines in the Japanese text, and both translations have six lines).
- --Byakko 01:10, February 25, 2010 (UTC)
- Oh wow, Nasu really did complicate things. I can understand the Chinese text -> Japanese text, as the Chinese version is graphically structured (5 lines made of 5 kanji each), but he then had to go a step further and retranslate his own poem.
Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. I'll put the romaji of furigana in the Chants & Incantations article.--Azaghal 00:31, February 26, 2010 (UTC)- Well, technically, there's just the Chinese version and the Japanese version. The kanjis that are carved on the blades are supposed to mean / be the exact same thing as the version with the "gaps filled in", and the "translated to Japanese" version is only the final version, in parenthesis here. So in there end, there is only the "crane wings, no opening" Chinese version and the "divine skills, flawless and firm" Japanese version. The "gaps filled" version appears to be meant as an intermediate version. Except that...
- ... The only problem is, as far as I understand, Chinese does not have the same sentence structure as Japanese (but I don't speak Chinese so I know no more details than that), so the version that "fills the gaps", and by extension the Chinese version itself, is supposedly no more proper Chinese than the UBW chant is proper English :P --Byakko 01:02, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
- Pretty sure the しんぎ of the first line is 心技 not 神技.
- ... Okay, maybe. Never really dared to make the change because of the lack of kanjis, even despite the same word being used twice in the "false Chinese" version. --Byakko 03:00, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
- Where would the kanji be written on the blade? -76.246.157.220 05:00, November 6, 2010 (UTC)
- Pretty sure the しんぎ of the first line is 心技 not 神技.
- Oh wow, Nasu really did complicate things. I can understand the Chinese text -> Japanese text, as the Chinese version is graphically structured (5 lines made of 5 kanji each), but he then had to go a step further and retranslate his own poem.
Han character in name
The name reads 干将・莫耶 (Kanshō and Bakuya ?), but it should read 干将・莫邪 (Kanshō and Bakuya ?). Both translate to the same thing ("ya" in "Bakuya"), but 邪 means "evil, wrong", and 耶 means nothing at all. If you go by the second set of han characters (kanji) the names together should be "Will do no evil", which makes sense. If you go by the original set on this webpage, it says "Will do no [Isn't an actual word]". I'm not sure if this is a mistake in this article only, or if it is a mistake in the visual novel, but somewhere there is a mistake.
70.63.140.61 19:55, February 27, 2010 (UTC)
- Have a look a little above in the page, and check the image I posted. According to Wikipedia, you're correct, but it actually seems like the Japanese version does not use the same Chinese kanjis but the kanjis seen in this page and on the Fate/Side Material scan I posted (as well as in the game itself, I'm pretty sure - though I've never noticed the difference and I don't have it under my eyes ATM). --Byakko 21:56, February 27, 2010 (UTC)
- I figured it out. Turns out both are "correct". Technically, the second one that I suggested is the most correct since it is the original Chinese. However, 耶 is used in Japanese for the purpose of transliterating Chinese. So consider 耶 a... placeholder for 邪, and thus it essentially means the same thing since it's merely representing the second, original han character. There is a similar change in the first word, Kanshou, from 將 to 将, the latter being simplified Chinese used also by Japan. The original version of the names with the 邪 character is on the Chinese wiki page and it even shows up on the Japanese wiki page no less than 12 times as 莫邪, and is even part of the first line of the article:
- かんしょう・ばくや。干将は本来干將。莫耶は莫邪とも
- "Kanshō & Bakuya. Kanshō (干将) was originally Gān Jiàng (干將). The Bakuya (莫耶) was Mò Yé (莫邪)"
- Now that this mystery is solved, there need not be any more worrying over it. Not that anyone was really worrying over it other than my poor self here. --Murder of Crows 20:25, January 18, 2011 (UTC)
Quick question about Tracing
Before you inform me that this is not the place to ask about "Trace Projection", I have a reason for posting this question here, even if it's not the best one.
What I have always wanted to know: is the rank "C−" the rank of these Noble Phantasms after Tracing or before Tracing? If it is the base rank, then the actual rank it would have as a projection would be "D−". But if the rank of it as a projection is actually "C−", that means the originals are "B−". I'm more inclined to agree with the second theory myself.
A possible theory I recently came up with was that, due to his extensive training and familiarization with Kanshou and Bakuya, he was able to reduce the degradation effect upon them. They were originally "C" ranked, and normally that would make them "D" ranked weapons, but his familiarity with them has reduced the degrade to "C−" instead.
Let me know what you think. Also, if you think I should take this down or move it to the Talk:Gradation Air page. --Murder of Crows 20:26, January 18, 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think it was ever specified, but C- is probably the rank of the swords when Archer is using them. Your theory of partial degradation makes sense (Avalon also doesn't undergo degradation, although due to different reasons), but we can't be sure unless Nasu reveales the specifics. --00:31, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
- I doubt Emiya "perfect traces" them, purely because the originals have extra abilities vs monsters, etc. So the Emiya versions, if Nasu was consistent with his own ranking rules, are ranked D-. The Overedges, in my opinion, are what makes the numbers strange. They HAVE to be ranked at least B- in order to have killed Berserker (after conversion into A- broken phantasms). Therefore, there are two possibilities:
- A) Occam's Razor: The original Kanshou and Bakuya are actually ranked B-, the traces are C-, the Overedges go back to B- and the breaks are A-. Nasu simply listed them as their traced value.
- B) Overedge is an extreme power boost: The originals are at the C- value, traces are D-, Overedge gives 2-3 rank ups to at least B-, and breaking them kills Berserker at A-.87.153.253.233 15:16, December 30, 2014 (UTC)
- Four year old topic dude, try to avoid posting in it. Hawkeye2701 (talk) 15:47, December 30, 2014 (UTC)
Anime Variation of Crane Wing
Should there be a mention of his alternate usage of the technique against Hercules in the anime, where he throws the first pair, crafts and throws the second pair, all of which seem to explode around Hercules, then makes the Overedges, and dual-slashes Hercules? o.o Or should that be left out entirely? Zahadrin (talk) 03:15, March 18, 2013 (UTC)
Crane Wing Three Realm?
"It also represents Crane Wing Three Realm (鶴翼三連, Kakuyoku Sanren?)"
Kakuyoku Sanren (鶴翼三連):
• 鶴: crane
• 翼: wing
• 三: three
• 連: join, connect
At no point did "sanren" ever mean "three realm". It means "triple" or "three-linked"... which makes perfect sense given the context.
...Can we please fix this inane translation mix-up? Murderofcrows (talk) 01:11, December 16, 2014 (UTC)
- No clue about it either way, so do fix it if it is incorrect. EGGS (talk) 02:19, December 16, 2014 (UTC)
Encounter
Can we alter where it says "encountered at some point in his life" to reflect that Archer encountered them first at his own hands, in his past?
13621 00:51, September 11, 2015 (UTC)
But that's not necessarily true, in fact it highly likely isn't. Archer is not the Shirou Emiya that we know, the version of the Grail War he lived through from Shirou's perspective was not one of the routes Shirou can encounter in the original FSN, we don't know if he was the Archer of his own war or anything else really. So we can't say anything for certain except "He encountered them at some point in his life." If there's evidence to the contrary, feel free to put it forward and I'll happily edit it myself, but unfortunately data on the Grail War Archer participated in as a Master is rather slim.Hawkeye2701 (talk) 03:14, September 11, 2015 (UTC)
Chant
I renamed the "Chant" section to "Triple-Linked Crane Wings". Does anyone else think this is better or worse? ~~ IST O L E T H E P I ES π 23:32, July 11, 2016 (UTC)
Why aren't Kanshou and Bakuya listed as Anti-King Noble Phantasms?
In one version of the swords legend:
Gan Jiang had already predicted the king's reaction, so he left behind a message for Mo Ye and their unborn son telling them where he had hidden the Ganjiang Sword. Several months later, Mo Ye gave birth to Gan Jiang's son, Chi (赤), and years later she told him his father's story. Chi was eager to avenge his father and he sought the Ganjiang Sword. At the same time, the king dreamed of a youth who desired to kill him and, in fear, he placed a bounty on the youth's head. Chi was indignant and, filled with anguish, he started crying on his way to enact his vengeance. An assassin found Chi, who told the assassin his story before committing suicide. The assassin was moved and decided to help Chi fulfill his quest.
The assassin severed Chi's head and brought it, along with the Ganjiang sword to the overjoyed king. The king was however uncomfortable with Chi's head staring at him, and the assassin asked the king to have Chi's head boiled, but Chi's head was still staring at the king even after 40 days without sign of decomposing, thus the assassin told the king that he needed to take a closer look and stare back in order for the head to decompose under the power of the king. The king bent over the cauldron and the assassin seized the opportunity to decapitate him, his head falling into the cauldron alongside Chi's. The assassin then cut off his own head, which also fell into the boiling water. The flesh on the heads was boiled away such that none of the guards could recognize which head belonged to whom. The guards and vassals decided since all three should be honoured as kings (With Chi and the assassin being so brave and loyal). The three heads were eventually buried together at Yichun County, Runan, Henan, and the grave is called "Tomb of Three Kings"
So why aren't they also listed as Anti-King Noble Phantasms? MathiasDante02 (talk) 23:51, August 14, 2016 (UTC)MathiasDante02