Forums: Index > TYPE-MOON Wiki Construction Forum > Western order
I'd like to switch the character names over to Western order. There's little point in continuing to use Eastern order other than slight familiarity due to a few translation projects. On the other side of things, most popular anime and manga related wikis switched over years ago, it fits with the slowly increasing English releases of TYPE-MOON products, and it simply matches with normal translation practices. The majority of the time character names are translated in side materials, they also use Western order, so that's another reason to switch. Any thoughts? EGGS 17:23, March 3, 2012 (UTC)
- I'm for it, if only because sometimes I get confused as to which is the first name and which is the last. Of course, how do said official English releases, such as Fate/Extra or Unlimited Codes or the like do it? If official materials do it in Western order, whether they be localizations or just romanization in Japanese material, then I see no reason why we shouldn't do the same.--Otherarrow 18:09, March 3, 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not for it. I'm used to the way it is right now. ...And you'll probably think me weird for saying this, but I actually feel that it is kind of rude to switch the order of the names; it's not as though Japanese and Chinese media switch Western names' order for their own convenience. Besides, maybe it's just me, but "Emiya Shirou" seems to sound better than "Shirou Emiya". I think it has something to do with the flow.Murderofcrows 20:34, March 3, 2012 (UTC)
- That's because you're used to it. What about some guy with no real knowledge of Japanese conventions who picks up Fate/Extra or unlimited codes randomly? It seems best for an English based wiki to format based on English conventions rather than a certain subset. EGGS 21:08, March 3, 2012 (UTC)
- I am not for it, because Western naming order is aesthetically displeasing to me, and I feel that such a massive change might be hugely confusing to people who regularly consult the Wikia for basic information. To clarify: I don't see name order as something important enough to support a particular format for, and so I won't bother to make an argument justifying for or against in a significant way. However, I would insist that this is merely an aesthetic choice on your part, and irrelevant to the status of English use in other materials, official or not. I remind you that the romanization in the canonical Japanese content is quite frequently filled with Engrish, and translation quality in official English localizations is not necessarily high. Ultimately, the content in this Wikia should be backwards compatible to alternate translations and formats where possible -- and if articles are renamed because of your choice, then redirects should be established where appropriate. -- Fallacies 20:51, March 3, 2012 (UTC)
- It isn't an aesthetic choice. It's a general part of standard professional Japanese to English translation. While you may find Western order kept in Japanese localizations if Murderofcrows is correct, you would be hard pressed to find Eastern order within any proper English localization that is not pandering to a certain crowd. The point about the romanizations is that even the Japanese see that the proper thing to do when translating into English is to switch the order. Something based on English conventions should use them rather than the weird pseudo-Japanese conventions that have persisted in fansubs and scanlations. EGGS 21:08, March 3, 2012 (UTC)
- "Standard professional translation" ultimately involves a translator making an aesthetic choice as well. Whether "fansubs and scanlations" are professional or not, they have made a differing aesthetic choice. As I indicated, I don't care to strongly justify my opinion, and it isn't my intention to argue about it either way. I've already stated my thoughts. -- Fallacies 23:32, March 3, 2012 (UTC)
- It isn't an aesthetic choice. It's a general part of standard professional Japanese to English translation. While you may find Western order kept in Japanese localizations if Murderofcrows is correct, you would be hard pressed to find Eastern order within any proper English localization that is not pandering to a certain crowd. The point about the romanizations is that even the Japanese see that the proper thing to do when translating into English is to switch the order. Something based on English conventions should use them rather than the weird pseudo-Japanese conventions that have persisted in fansubs and scanlations. EGGS 21:08, March 3, 2012 (UTC)
- When someone else wants Japanese order, it's only because they're used to it, but when you want the Western order, it's not an aesthetic choice ? OF COURSE --Byakko 01:18, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
- But nobody claimed that the former wasn't an aesthetic choice, so your point is pretty moot. What was claimed is the fact that making the change to a different order isn't exactly necessary. Murderofcrows 01:21, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
- If my sarcasm wasn't clear I'm against the Western order because it's useless and the arguments in favor are meaningless, and I was pointing out the hypocrisy that when someone else says A, it's because of personal choices, but when he himself says B, it's totally not because of personal choice but for this and that very logical reason, and he knows that everyone who disagrees does so only out of habit because he's omniscient and can read everyone's mind. --Byakko 01:29, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
- But nobody claimed that the former wasn't an aesthetic choice, so your point is pretty moot. What was claimed is the fact that making the change to a different order isn't exactly necessary. Murderofcrows 01:21, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
- At any rate, I'm actually more driven to oppose because I think it's a rude practice to ignore a foreign culture's conventions simply because it's convenient. And since someone might try to reduce that to the absurd conclusion that this would also somehow cover translation, let me set them straight. That would only be true if "learning to read/speak a completely different language" was somehow equatable to "learning to read a translated name 'backwards' compared to what one is used to". Compared to the former, the latter is extremely easy, so they aren't compatible, and the argument that "translation is the same kind of convenience by your logic" falls completely flat. Translation makes the work available to a wider audience that would likely never have been able to understand and enjoy the work otherwise. Switching the order of names, however, does not accomplish anything so useful as that; it's just a useless convenience, as I said. Murderofcrows 01:39, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Also, EGGS has said something about "standard professional Japanese to English translation". Consider, EGGS, that most Japanese manga translated into English are, to my knowledge, kept in their original format of "right to left". It would be an aesthetic choice to switch the format, one that the majority of publishers thought was unnecessary or unwanted. Similarly, this "issue" is the same as the argument of "subs vs dubs". I'm generally on the "subs" side for several reasons; I feel the original voices are the ones best suited to the characters, and I feel that the dubbing process typically causes damage to the original material (for example, often times dubbing either leaves out or "Americanizes" dialogue that contains culturally relevant but possibly confusing material like idioms). However, that's an aesthetic choice, and one that doesn't affect others, since I don't push it onto others by saying something like "abolish all dubs". However, changing the name order from original [and correct, mind you] format to a convenient Western format is pushing an aesthetic choice onto others. Murderofcrows 01:48, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
- I also feel subs are generally better, and the normal format for manga is fine (also note that is is probably costly and time consuming to flip them compared to just leaving them). Neither of those can be compared to translation, which is in issue of understanding the information rather than just visualizing or hearing it. But the main thing is that I'm not really referring to the anime and manga side of things when I'm talking about professional translation. In the beginning, you would find pretty much complete translations, but companies like Del Ray eventually started to specifically pander to those who have been weened on fansubs and scanlations. Any proper translator who has gone through years of studying and that could write six academic papers on a single language if you asked would definitely not do such things. I cannot imagine seeing anything like that in a proper Japanese to English translation of a book or any video game other than whichever Persona kept the honorifics. The point is that the notion that the Japanese language needs to be kept "pure" or that it is "too complex to properly translate" is something that exists only within a specific subset of a specific community, so it should not be something that reflects here where people not of that group may come to read. EGGS 08:45, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
- "the notion that the Japanese language needs to be kept "pure" or that it is "too complex to properly translate""
- See that ? That's bullshit, and your attempt to reduce opposing argument to that is insulting. --Byakko 19:14, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Those are exact phrases used by others in conversations exactly like these, so it's not a simple generalization. It was more of a general statement summing up the sentiments behind the whole keeping honorifics and name order, not translating certain words, and other similar practices found in the fansubbing and scanlating community rather than towards any specific person. Such things are limited only to that community, and do not extend to casual watcher and readers or people who only know the series through the translated material. This community, as an English speaking site, should be accessible to everyone from the outset rather than people who fall under that group or those who share certain elements of it. EGGS 19:32, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
- I also feel subs are generally better, and the normal format for manga is fine (also note that is is probably costly and time consuming to flip them compared to just leaving them). Neither of those can be compared to translation, which is in issue of understanding the information rather than just visualizing or hearing it. But the main thing is that I'm not really referring to the anime and manga side of things when I'm talking about professional translation. In the beginning, you would find pretty much complete translations, but companies like Del Ray eventually started to specifically pander to those who have been weened on fansubs and scanlations. Any proper translator who has gone through years of studying and that could write six academic papers on a single language if you asked would definitely not do such things. I cannot imagine seeing anything like that in a proper Japanese to English translation of a book or any video game other than whichever Persona kept the honorifics. The point is that the notion that the Japanese language needs to be kept "pure" or that it is "too complex to properly translate" is something that exists only within a specific subset of a specific community, so it should not be something that reflects here where people not of that group may come to read. EGGS 08:45, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Also, EGGS has said something about "standard professional Japanese to English translation". Consider, EGGS, that most Japanese manga translated into English are, to my knowledge, kept in their original format of "right to left". It would be an aesthetic choice to switch the format, one that the majority of publishers thought was unnecessary or unwanted. Similarly, this "issue" is the same as the argument of "subs vs dubs". I'm generally on the "subs" side for several reasons; I feel the original voices are the ones best suited to the characters, and I feel that the dubbing process typically causes damage to the original material (for example, often times dubbing either leaves out or "Americanizes" dialogue that contains culturally relevant but possibly confusing material like idioms). However, that's an aesthetic choice, and one that doesn't affect others, since I don't push it onto others by saying something like "abolish all dubs". However, changing the name order from original [and correct, mind you] format to a convenient Western format is pushing an aesthetic choice onto others. Murderofcrows 01:48, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
- I'm for the change. In addition to it being common in translations and the fact that it's also in officially released content, most casual users and newcomers to manga and anime are confused by the Eastern order. This isn't done in just officially released manga and anime, but games as well, and it is done this way in order to make it less confusing to audiences that are used to the genre of the series they are watching/reading/playing. Aside from that, the Western characters in the TYPE-MOON works already have this naming order arranged, so I see little reason to keep it on its Eastern order with those specific characters who have it like that already. Arrancar109 (Talk) 07:02, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
- I'd also be in favour of the change and I agree with the arguments given in favour of this change so far. It is common in most translations to the render the order of the names of a character beginning with the character's given name followed by their surname. For a number of professional translations, The convention of keeping the order of surname preceding given name usually applies only to historical figures. The only example I can think of at the moment with both is Viz translation for Hikaru no Go; the main character and his friends are consistently refered to by given name first and surname second (Hikaru Shindou, Akira Toya) but historical (or pseudo-historical) figures are referred to be surname first (Fujiwara no Sai; Oda Nobunaga, Akechi Mitsuhide). Wikipedia appears to follow the same convention for modern day figures by rendering their names in "western order" and utilizing the nihongo template to acknowledge the original naming order as follows Kiritsugu Emiya (衛宮切嗣, Emiya Kiritsugu). Eikakou 07:29, March 8, 2012 (UTC)
It's been about a month, and the numbers agree with changing it. Unless anyone has some sort of giant objection, I'll probably start to switch names over tomorrow. EGGS 14:53, April 2, 2012 (UTC)
EGGS only drew my attention to this forum today when I posted about Shirou Emiya's name being western order. As it stands, Type Moon is pretty good about this, their western characters like Waver and Kayneth using Western style names to begin with and Eastern characters being refered to Eastern style, but this does create confusion applying it to a wiki, especially since we don't have it universalised between East and West with the aforementioned Shirou, which once again led me to question which name is Ryuunosuke Uryuu's given name after just having thought I got it right at last. As such, I'm all for the change to western order, that way anyone who visits the wiki won't be confused about it. Those savvy enough will know the Eastern style of the names, but the clueless people won't be forced to look around aimlessly for a character they don't know the family name of or anything. I haven't read all the comments, so I'm sorry if I'm just rehashing what's already been said, but that's my view on things. Hawkeye2701 12:35, April 3, 2012 (UTC)